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	<title>Comments on: Oy Vey, Not Again</title>
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	<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/</link>
	<description>The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Still Learning</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>Still Learning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2005 06:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>I know this is an old thread but I discovered it when researching the background to the advertisement for "Seven Great Lies of Organized Religion". &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This is the Internet. Nothing is as it seems. I always Google the author before reaching a conclusion. It turns out that Perry Marshall of the 7 lies is the same one who is a big wheel in Guerilla Marketing. &lt;br/&gt;See &lt;a HREF="http://religion.coffeehousetheology.com/" REL="nofollow"&gt; http://religion.coffeehousetheology.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;then &lt;a HREF="http://www.tannah.net/religion/index05.htm" REL="nofollow"&gt; http://www.tannah.net/religion/index05.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;then &lt;a HREF="http://www.tannah.net/" REL="nofollow"&gt; http://www.tannah.net/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;which takes you to  &lt;a HREF="http://www.perrymarshall.com/" REL="nofollow"&gt; http://www.perrymarshall.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So maybe this whole course is a money making scheme. As anonymous has already said "Philocrites here: My ads work! They inspire! They bring revenue! Hoorah!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this is an old thread but I discovered it when researching the background to the advertisement for &#8220;Seven Great Lies of Organized Religion&#8221;. </p>
<p>This is the Internet. Nothing is as it seems. I always Google the author before reaching a conclusion. It turns out that Perry Marshall of the 7 lies is the same one who is a big wheel in Guerilla Marketing. <br />See <a HREF="http://religion.coffeehousetheology.com/" REL="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://religion.coffeehousetheology.com/" rel="nofollow">http://religion.coffeehousetheology.com/</a><br />then <a HREF="http://www.tannah.net/religion/index05.htm" REL="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://www.tannah.net/religion/index05.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.tannah.net/religion/index05.htm</a><br />then <a HREF="http://www.tannah.net/" REL="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://www.tannah.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.tannah.net/</a><br />which takes you to  <a HREF="http://www.perrymarshall.com/" REL="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://www.perrymarshall.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.perrymarshall.com/</a></p>
<p>So maybe this whole course is a money making scheme. As anonymous has already said &#8220;Philocrites here: My ads work! They inspire! They bring revenue! Hoorah!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-84</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Wow, this seems just like the good old days of the UU Debate Board&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;"Dixitinsipiens" from said board here.  Have been lurking.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Frankly, I think the levels of knowledge, discussion, sincerity, respect, and wit are all noticeably higher in the emerging UU blogosphere than they have been at beliefnet.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;the UU blogosphere:  "It's the youngest, established, permanent, floating crap game on the Web!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Wow, this seems just like the good old days of the UU Debate Board</i>.</p>
<p>&#8220;Dixitinsipiens&#8221; from said board here.  Have been lurking.</p>
<p>Frankly, I think the levels of knowledge, discussion, sincerity, respect, and wit are all noticeably higher in the emerging UU blogosphere than they have been at beliefnet.</p>
<p>the UU blogosphere:  &#8220;It&#8217;s the youngest, established, permanent, floating crap game on the Web!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-83</guid>
		<description>For a genuinely liberal approach to the "Great Lies" curriculum, check out&lt;br /&gt;http://www.livingthequestions.com/text_home.php&lt;br /&gt;They've got quite a list of contributors, and their tag line is, "Wisdom is asking the questions for which there are no answers"&lt;br /&gt;-- Harrell Beck</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a genuinely liberal approach to the &#8220;Great Lies&#8221; curriculum, check out<br /><a href="http://www.livingthequestions.com/text_home.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.livingthequestions.com/text_home.php</a><br />They&#8217;ve got quite a list of contributors, and their tag line is, &#8220;Wisdom is asking the questions for which there are no answers&#8221;<br />&#8211; Harrell Beck</p>
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		<title>By: Chalicechick</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>Chalicechick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-82</guid>
		<description>I know that was basically a compliment, but it sure doesn't sound like one. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know that was basically a compliment, but it sure doesn&#8217;t sound like one. </p>
<p>CC</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2005 04:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-81</guid>
		<description>Wow, this seems just like the good old days of the UU Debate Board.  I guess it's like a travelling crap game nowadays. (Or like a rave for those of you too young to remember such things.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, this seems just like the good old days of the UU Debate Board.  I guess it&#8217;s like a travelling crap game nowadays. (Or like a rave for those of you too young to remember such things.)</p>
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		<title>By: Chalicechick</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Chalicechick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2005 21:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-80</guid>
		<description>errr...  I came back to organized religion.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I'm probably never going back to being a Presbyterian. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CC&lt;br /&gt;who is probably still a self-destructive nincompoop.  She likes to think she hides it well, but fausto may be on to her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>errr&#8230;  I came back to organized religion.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m probably never going back to being a Presbyterian. </p>
<p>CC<br />who is probably still a self-destructive nincompoop.  She likes to think she hides it well, but fausto may be on to her.</p>
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		<title>By: Chalicechick</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>Chalicechick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2005 21:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-79</guid>
		<description>(((they come into *and leave* our movement without knowing that heritage,holding forever to the notion of themselves as lone rebels, and to the concept of churches as preservers of the status quo.)))&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Of course, at the same time, they're leaving the scout troop they've been in since they were five, quitting the flute they spent years learning to play, forgetting their plans to be a doctor, starting a punk band, and sitting out on the roof smoking when they're supposed to be in bed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;OF course we all know they will get over everything else that goes with youth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What makes you think they won't outgrow their attitude about organized religion?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For me, attending church was part of a carefully-constructed facade that hid from my parents that I was a self-destructive nincompoop. I remember the phase.  Took four years of not being a presbyterian to get over it.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Once I was, I came right back.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;CC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(((they come into *and leave* our movement without knowing that heritage,holding forever to the notion of themselves as lone rebels, and to the concept of churches as preservers of the status quo.)))</p>
<p>Of course, at the same time, they&#8217;re leaving the scout troop they&#8217;ve been in since they were five, quitting the flute they spent years learning to play, forgetting their plans to be a doctor, starting a punk band, and sitting out on the roof smoking when they&#8217;re supposed to be in bed.</p>
<p>OF course we all know they will get over everything else that goes with youth.</p>
<p>What makes you think they won&#8217;t outgrow their attitude about organized religion?</p>
<p>For me, attending church was part of a carefully-constructed facade that hid from my parents that I was a self-destructive nincompoop. I remember the phase.  Took four years of not being a presbyterian to get over it.  </p>
<p>Once I was, I came right back.</p>
<p>CC</p>
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		<title>By: fausto</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>fausto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-78</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;they don't get acquainted with the tradition of inquiry and criticism to which they are heir, and they come into ... our movement without knowing that heritage, holding forever to the notion of themselves as lone rebels.... It hurts them. It hurts the movement, immeasurably.&lt;/i&gt;Sadly, the exact same thing can be said about many of their parents, in my experience.  The distinction beween self-culture and self-seeking has been allowed to erode for too long.  It's the dark side of our heritage of "the right of private judgment" and Emersonian individualism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>they don&#8217;t get acquainted with the tradition of inquiry and criticism to which they are heir, and they come into &#8230; our movement without knowing that heritage, holding forever to the notion of themselves as lone rebels&#8230;. It hurts them. It hurts the movement, immeasurably.</i>Sadly, the exact same thing can be said about many of their parents, in my experience.  The distinction beween self-culture and self-seeking has been allowed to erode for too long.  It&#8217;s the dark side of our heritage of &#8220;the right of private judgment&#8221; and Emersonian individualism.</p>
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		<title>By: PeaceBang</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>PeaceBang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2005 18:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-77</guid>
		<description>Yes,go ye and proselytize! Evangelize! And come back to Peacebang for more sweeping generalizations!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Seriously, though. As I was thinking about some of the points you all have made, it occurred to me that most UU youth of my acquaintance would not hesitate to label ChaliceChick's hypothetical blog ad for a course on the Healing Power of the Bible as sheer nonsense.... while regarding Mr. Marshall's claims with an affirmative nod of "mmmhmm, I hear you, pal!" Why? Because they don't go to church (where they're often not welcomed), they don't get acquainted with the tradition of inquiry and criticism to which they are heir, and they come into *and leave* our movement without knowing that heritage,holding forever to the notion of themselves as lone rebels, and to the concept of churches as preservers of the status quo.  It hurts them. It hurts the movement, immeasurably.&lt;br /&gt; Sorry to belabor the Loss of Youth Thing again (as we dragged on and on about on Philocrites some time ago, but it weighs on me mind lately.&lt;br /&gt;Of COURSE there are ways other than church life to engage in a free and disciplined and responsible search for truth and meaning and Philocrites is right: if our congregations want to compete, we have to do it better or best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes,go ye and proselytize! Evangelize! And come back to Peacebang for more sweeping generalizations!</p>
<p>Seriously, though. As I was thinking about some of the points you all have made, it occurred to me that most UU youth of my acquaintance would not hesitate to label ChaliceChick&#8217;s hypothetical blog ad for a course on the Healing Power of the Bible as sheer nonsense&#8230;. while regarding Mr. Marshall&#8217;s claims with an affirmative nod of &#8220;mmmhmm, I hear you, pal!&#8221; Why? Because they don&#8217;t go to church (where they&#8217;re often not welcomed), they don&#8217;t get acquainted with the tradition of inquiry and criticism to which they are heir, and they come into *and leave* our movement without knowing that heritage,holding forever to the notion of themselves as lone rebels, and to the concept of churches as preservers of the status quo.  It hurts them. It hurts the movement, immeasurably.<br /> Sorry to belabor the Loss of Youth Thing again (as we dragged on and on about on Philocrites some time ago, but it weighs on me mind lately.<br />Of COURSE there are ways other than church life to engage in a free and disciplined and responsible search for truth and meaning and Philocrites is right: if our congregations want to compete, we have to do it better or best.</p>
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		<title>By: fausto</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-76</link>
		<dc:creator>fausto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2005 15:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2005/02/03/oy-vey-not-again/#comment-76</guid>
		<description>I agree with Peacebang that there are many denominations, churches, and synagogues where such issues as being able to hear "the direct voice of the Holy Spirit" (to quote First Church in Boston's Anne Hutchinson) or exercise "the right of private judgment" (to quote Arlington Street's Ezra Stiles Gannett), or discussing theodicy, or evaluating competing theories of Scriptural authority, or acknowledging the discrepancies between the historic Church and either its own moral teachings or modern moral paradigms, are regularly and intelligently addressed in a spirit of acceptance and open inquiry.  I also agree with Peacebang that freethinkers (even many UU ones) need to be better aware that, as John Winthrop cautioned Anne Hutchinson, the unguided solitary path is especially prone to error.  Not everybody is as truly connected to the Over-Soul as Emerson was, though many suppose themselves to be.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, I disagree to some extent with Peacebang's sweeping criticism, both here and on the "Spiritual but not Religious" thread, of folks who don't go to church to pursue such concerns.  For example, the "spiritual but not religious" wedding guest against whom PB rails may not realize that such honesty and support is in fact available in UU or other churches.  We don't exactly do a great job of proselytizing, at either the personal or institutional level.  To reject such inquirers may be to lose potential converts.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Moreover, there are indeed large swathes of the country where it can be difficult to find &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; local church that encourages such openness and honesty -- even (regrettably) within our own UU denomination.  Mr. or Ms. "SBNR" simply may not be familiar with what we offer, or may even have visited one of our more intolerant or spiritually dissolute congregations and found it, too, wanting.  ("Spirit of Life" knows, we have such congregations.)  Likewise, Perry Marshall's own personal experience may indeed have given him the sincere impression that there is no place in any organized religion (at least none he has seen) where such questions are honestly embraced.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Wherever such inquiry is discouraged, or even perceived to be discouraged, a seeker may find more integrity in a lonesome personal search than in a misleading or unfulfilling collaborative one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Peacebang that there are many denominations, churches, and synagogues where such issues as being able to hear &#8220;the direct voice of the Holy Spirit&#8221; (to quote First Church in Boston&#8217;s Anne Hutchinson) or exercise &#8220;the right of private judgment&#8221; (to quote Arlington Street&#8217;s Ezra Stiles Gannett), or discussing theodicy, or evaluating competing theories of Scriptural authority, or acknowledging the discrepancies between the historic Church and either its own moral teachings or modern moral paradigms, are regularly and intelligently addressed in a spirit of acceptance and open inquiry.  I also agree with Peacebang that freethinkers (even many UU ones) need to be better aware that, as John Winthrop cautioned Anne Hutchinson, the unguided solitary path is especially prone to error.  Not everybody is as truly connected to the Over-Soul as Emerson was, though many suppose themselves to be.</p>
<p>However, I disagree to some extent with Peacebang&#8217;s sweeping criticism, both here and on the &#8220;Spiritual but not Religious&#8221; thread, of folks who don&#8217;t go to church to pursue such concerns.  For example, the &#8220;spiritual but not religious&#8221; wedding guest against whom PB rails may not realize that such honesty and support is in fact available in UU or other churches.  We don&#8217;t exactly do a great job of proselytizing, at either the personal or institutional level.  To reject such inquirers may be to lose potential converts.  </p>
<p>Moreover, there are indeed large swathes of the country where it can be difficult to find <i>any</i> local church that encourages such openness and honesty &#8212; even (regrettably) within our own UU denomination.  Mr. or Ms. &#8220;SBNR&#8221; simply may not be familiar with what we offer, or may even have visited one of our more intolerant or spiritually dissolute congregations and found it, too, wanting.  (&#8221;Spirit of Life&#8221; knows, we have such congregations.)  Likewise, Perry Marshall&#8217;s own personal experience may indeed have given him the sincere impression that there is no place in any organized religion (at least none he has seen) where such questions are honestly embraced.  </p>
<p>Wherever such inquiry is discouraged, or even perceived to be discouraged, a seeker may find more integrity in a lonesome personal search than in a misleading or unfulfilling collaborative one.</p>
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