Comments on: Training for Faith http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/ The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather Sun, 07 Sep 2008 02:12:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: pb2uu http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-995 pb2uu Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:41:39 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-995 As a former parish minister, I remember the anxiety about retention and drop-out rates. <br/><br/>It seemed to me that despite my best efforts to frame the problem as concern for the well-being of those who "we hadn't seen in a while," my real commitment was to the well-being of the organization.<br/><br/>I didn't really like my "clutchiness" then and still aspire to be like the Buddhist monks who work so painstakingly to create a sand mandala, only to sweep the sand away when the mandala is completed. Then they carry the muddled sand to the river, and the river carries it away. As a former parish minister, I remember the anxiety about retention and drop-out rates.

It seemed to me that despite my best efforts to frame the problem as concern for the well-being of those who “we hadn’t seen in a while,” my real commitment was to the well-being of the organization.

I didn’t really like my “clutchiness” then and still aspire to be like the Buddhist monks who work so painstakingly to create a sand mandala, only to sweep the sand away when the mandala is completed. Then they carry the muddled sand to the river, and the river carries it away.

]]> By: Michelle http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-994 Michelle Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:14:43 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-994 I don't at all have any hard evidence for this, but anectdoal evidence among semiarians I know, at least, suggests that some people do indeed leave UUism for liberal Christian denominations (such as UCC). This may be a quite different dynamic than what happens to UU members, but having been a subscriber to the UU Christian fellowship list for a while suggests that this might not be the case - that list is full of ex-UUs who are now going to a wide range of non-UU churches, primarily because they've come through a healing process by being a UU, and decide (for a variety of reasons) that they need something different - often something closer to the churches they grew up in. I don’t at all have any hard evidence for this, but anectdoal evidence among semiarians I know, at least, suggests that some people do indeed leave UUism for liberal Christian denominations (such as UCC). This may be a quite different dynamic than what happens to UU members, but having been a subscriber to the UU Christian fellowship list for a while suggests that this might not be the case - that list is full of ex-UUs who are now going to a wide range of non-UU churches, primarily because they’ve come through a healing process by being a UU, and decide (for a variety of reasons) that they need something different - often something closer to the churches they grew up in.

]]> By: Clyde Grubbs http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-993 Clyde Grubbs Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:02:27 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-993 I misspelled. It was Peregrinato that I intended.<br/><br/>Writing in little boxes is a growing edge for me. I misspelled. It was Peregrinato that I intended.

Writing in little boxes is a growing edge for me.

]]> By: Clyde Grubbs http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-992 Clyde Grubbs Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:59:37 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-992 Pregrinato asks about social science research at the UUA — we did have such a staff once, but it was cut with the budget cuts of 2003-4.<br/><br/>If we are to have a ministry to UUs who have moved beyond the 7 principles and chalice art we need to intentional. We do lose folks who no longer find a place that supports there growth, but only some of them become Baptists or other denominations likely to be represented by DMin students on the Hill. Pregrinato asks about social science research at the UUA — we did have such a staff once, but it was cut with the budget cuts of 2003-4.

If we are to have a ministry to UUs who have moved beyond the 7 principles and chalice art we need to intentional. We do lose folks who no longer find a place that supports there growth, but only some of them become Baptists or other denominations likely to be represented by DMin students on the Hill.

]]> By: Kim http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-991 Kim Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:48:01 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-991 I hope this is ok, but I found a post by Doug Muder that describes this issue really really well, so I will paste it here for you:<br/><br/>Doug Muder:<br/><br/><i>Creedlessness is a valuable part of our tradition that we explain very badly. Being non-creedal is a positive choice, not a "Watch This Space" sign.<br/>Holt seems to have noticed that the Principles aren't a good creed. Creeds are supposed to define who's in and who's out. (That's why Christian churches started reciting them: to make heretics perjure themselves.) So if "any average Rotary club" can affirm your creed, it's not doing its job of keeping out the infidels.<br/>But the Principles aren't supposed to be a creed. UUism is covenantal, not creedal. We don't look out at the world and affirm that we see the same things, we look at each other and make commitments. That's a choice, not a flaw, and I don't want to see it "fixed" by producing a new set of Principles that will make a better creed.</i> I hope this is ok, but I found a post by Doug Muder that describes this issue really really well, so I will paste it here for you:

Doug Muder:

Creedlessness is a valuable part of our tradition that we explain very badly. Being non-creedal is a positive choice, not a “Watch This Space” sign.
Holt seems to have noticed that the Principles aren’t a good creed. Creeds are supposed to define who’s in and who’s out. (That’s why Christian churches started reciting them: to make heretics perjure themselves.) So if “any average Rotary club” can affirm your creed, it’s not doing its job of keeping out the infidels.
But the Principles aren’t supposed to be a creed. UUism is covenantal, not creedal. We don’t look out at the world and affirm that we see the same things, we look at each other and make commitments. That’s a choice, not a flaw, and I don’t want to see it “fixed” by producing a new set of Principles that will make a better creed.

]]> By: SC Universalist http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-990 SC Universalist Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:02:33 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-990 I dont know of any church that keeps every member (or even close), most visitors come and go ----<br/>--- the disadvantage that UU has is that we dont have the overwheming quilt that keeps many folks going to many denominations (not implying that that is the sole reason some folks go to church, but it certainly is a reason that some to many go). People that go to UU want to go, and not everyone goes for the same reason -- which is why we need more UU churches, so folks can find a better fit! I dont know of any church that keeps every member (or even close), most visitors come and go —-
— the disadvantage that UU has is that we dont have the overwheming quilt that keeps many folks going to many denominations (not implying that that is the sole reason some folks go to church, but it certainly is a reason that some to many go). People that go to UU want to go, and not everyone goes for the same reason — which is why we need more UU churches, so folks can find a better fit!

]]> By: Peregrinato http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-989 Peregrinato Sun, 30 Oct 2005 01:13:33 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-989 Well, let's make someone do that research! I am kinda curious now, what kind of work in this area is done by the UUA. It can't all be theologizing on pluralism, covenant, etc.--there must be some social sciences rooted fieldwork and research that can better contribute to our understanding of the history and trajectory of the UUA. Are the UU seminaries doing any work in this? This is often where research and writing is produced in non-UU denominations. Hmmm. Anyway, I would like to read what you end up working on...the concept of covenant is pretty important to me (and is one of the reasons I am still UU). Well, let’s make someone do that research! I am kinda curious now, what kind of work in this area is done by the UUA. It can’t all be theologizing on pluralism, covenant, etc.–there must be some social sciences rooted fieldwork and research that can better contribute to our understanding of the history and trajectory of the UUA. Are the UU seminaries doing any work in this? This is often where research and writing is produced in non-UU denominations. Hmmm. Anyway, I would like to read what you end up working on…the concept of covenant is pretty important to me (and is one of the reasons I am still UU).

]]> By: PeaceBang http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-988 PeaceBang Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:35:12 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-988 Perig, that would be a wonderful project for someone, but I'm far too biased to do the research and that kind of research doesn't interest me at all. It would depress and anger me too much to pursue the answer to that question and to serve in the parish in the meantime. If I stick with my project on covenant, I can make what I hope will be a positive contribution. Perig, that would be a wonderful project for someone, but I’m far too biased to do the research and that kind of research doesn’t interest me at all. It would depress and anger me too much to pursue the answer to that question and to serve in the parish in the meantime. If I stick with my project on covenant, I can make what I hope will be a positive contribution.

]]> By: Peregrinato http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-987 Peregrinato Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:33:03 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-987 Maybe <i>that</i> should be the focus of your project? It might seem to dwell on critique, but if we can understand what's called in education "the dropout problem" we've begun to get a handle on prevention, and the UU community would definitely benifit from that. Maybe that should be the focus of your project? It might seem to dwell on critique, but if we can understand what’s called in education “the dropout problem” we’ve begun to get a handle on prevention, and the UU community would definitely benifit from that.

]]> By: PeaceBang http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-986 PeaceBang Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:16:22 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2005/10/29/training-for-faith/#comment-986 Thanks for commenting, everyone. Lots of you have good insights -- I guess the reason I got so especially pissed was the old, "I can be critical of my own people but you don't get to be" thing. Paul's question is an interesting one. I know that a number of UUs leave for other faith communities but my assumption was and is that the majority of UU drop-outs become part of the Great Unchurched.<br/><br/>Does anyone have any numbers on this? Or thoughts? Thanks for commenting, everyone. Lots of you have good insights — I guess the reason I got so especially pissed was the old, “I can be critical of my own people but you don’t get to be” thing. Paul’s question is an interesting one. I know that a number of UUs leave for other faith communities but my assumption was and is that the majority of UU drop-outs become part of the Great Unchurched.

Does anyone have any numbers on this? Or thoughts?

]]>