Comments on: The Annual Prayer of Kvetching http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/ The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather Thu, 04 Dec 2008 00:57:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: jinnis http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4529 jinnis Wed, 06 Jun 2007 14:19:58 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4529 Speaking to Peacebang's point on the topic of who is in charge - I've been wondering, since UU's don't have a single transcendent focus - such as God, and without a single text for authority, I wonder if the minister then becomes more directly the interpreter of religious experience. "Ministry by character" to turn a phrase. And that can have all manner of results for good or for ill, not the least of which can be perceiving the chasm between clergy and laity. Also, I know one of the hazards of a very long term ministry - at least two decades - is for some percentage of the congregation to be more about how that minister expresses religious thought, than about the larger faith. I do think Mark Morrison-Reed really made the point about the difference between ministers and the congregation in his Berry Street address: http://www.uuma.org/berrystreet/Essays/BSE2000.htm That ministers are with the congregation, not of them. And my first responsibility is to understand how my presence is part of the congregation. I will say I gained a much renewed appreciation for the skills and dedication of leaders in our churches during my ministries of the last couple of years. The dedicated members and friends are the ones who make the church happen. Speaking to Peacebang’s point on the topic of who is in charge - I’ve been wondering, since UU’s don’t have a single transcendent focus - such as God, and without a single text for authority, I wonder if the minister then becomes more directly the interpreter of religious experience. “Ministry by character” to turn a phrase. And that can have all manner of results for good or for ill, not the least of which can be perceiving the chasm between clergy and laity. Also, I know one of the hazards of a very long term ministry - at least two decades - is for some percentage of the congregation to be more about how that minister expresses religious thought, than about the larger faith.

I do think Mark Morrison-Reed really made the point about the difference between ministers and the congregation in his Berry Street address: http://www.uuma.org/berrystreet/Essays/BSE2000.htm
That ministers are with the congregation, not of them. And my first responsibility is to understand how my presence is part of the congregation.

I will say I gained a much renewed appreciation for the skills and dedication of leaders in our churches during my ministries of the last couple of years. The dedicated members and friends are the ones who make the church happen.

]]> By: Lizard Eater http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4518 Lizard Eater Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:27:09 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4518 Picking out one tiny shred from this: "... also focus far too much on the grand chasm that some of us seem to think lies between the ordained clergy and the laity" I'd love to explore this topic more. Since I am vastly more laity at this point, with just a toe dipping into the clergy world, I can report that there are a lot of "chips" on lay shoulders on this subject. Now, some is patently unfair -- just plain anti-authoritarianism. But some has come in response from clergy figures who are open about the chasm they assume exists. "I've been a UU for 40 years, this whippersnapper minister acts like I can't possibly understand the issues she deals with?" I have no answers ... I'm a puppy, wet behind the ears. But shouldn't there be a middle ground between keeping an appropriate authority and separate-ness, and maintaining a chasm? Picking out one tiny shred from this:

“… also focus far too much on the grand chasm that some of us seem to think lies between the ordained clergy and the laity”

I’d love to explore this topic more. Since I am vastly more laity at this point, with just a toe dipping into the clergy world, I can report that there are a lot of “chips” on lay shoulders on this subject. Now, some is patently unfair — just plain anti-authoritarianism. But some has come in response from clergy figures who are open about the chasm they assume exists. “I’ve been a UU for 40 years, this whippersnapper minister acts like I can’t possibly understand the issues she deals with?”

I have no answers … I’m a puppy, wet behind the ears. But shouldn’t there be a middle ground between keeping an appropriate authority and separate-ness, and maintaining a chasm?

]]> By: PeaceBang http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4503 PeaceBang Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:34:27 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4503 Thanks for all these great comments. I've been wondering about this at the Festival of Homiletics and figured out today that it might be because Christian pastors believe that God is ultimately in charge of their churches, not them. Therefore, if ministry hurts, God may still be doing something positive in God's own way. What reminded me of this was when Bishop Willimon said, "I don't know why God is closing 300 of our churches, but God doesn't invest in real estate." Maybe part of what hurts for many UU pastors is feeling totally responsible for everything that happens in the church and having no sense that God is "with thee." Just a thought. Thanks for all these great comments. I’ve been wondering about this at the Festival of Homiletics and figured out today that it might be because Christian pastors believe that God is ultimately in charge of their churches, not them. Therefore, if ministry hurts, God may still be doing something positive in God’s own way. What reminded me of this was when Bishop Willimon said, “I don’t know why God is closing 300 of our churches, but God doesn’t invest in real estate.”

Maybe part of what hurts for many UU pastors is feeling totally responsible for everything that happens in the church and having no sense that God is “with thee.” Just a thought.

]]> By: Robin http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4494 Robin Tue, 05 Jun 2007 19:50:29 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4494 This kind of collective kvetch is pervasive in groups of women, too. I experience it now in my new moms groups. I neglect telling other mothers that my baby sleeps through the night for fear they will take me out to the parking lot and kick me in the teeth. I think women have been taught not to brag in order to make connections with one another, so they try to out-martyr each other instead. The competition is still there, but it contains less gloating, and more opportunities to support each other in our woundedness (and know that we are among the wounded...we aren't the only ones)--hence fosters more connection. Perhaps this requisite ministry day prayer can be attributed to the feminization of the UU ministry? Just one layperson's half-joking stab in the dark... Robin This kind of collective kvetch is pervasive in groups of women, too. I experience it now in my new moms groups. I neglect telling other mothers that my baby sleeps through the night for fear they will take me out to the parking lot and kick me in the teeth. I think women have been taught not to brag in order to make connections with one another, so they try to out-martyr each other instead. The competition is still there, but it contains less gloating, and more opportunities to support each other in our woundedness (and know that we are among the wounded…we aren’t the only ones)–hence fosters more connection. Perhaps this requisite ministry day prayer can be attributed to the feminization of the UU ministry? Just one layperson’s half-joking stab in the dark…
Robin

]]> By: jinnis http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4487 jinnis Tue, 05 Jun 2007 17:01:30 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4487 I appreciate both Peacebang's query - because we really need to make sure that kind of reflection is serving us and the larger movement. And I have my own experience related to God Guurrll's. There have been some years at ministry days when that prayer was the moment when I felt, "somebody sees me! loves me! knows what I've been through this year! I don't have to hold it by myself anymore." A very powerful release at times. And then other years, that prayer does not go so deep because I have not had such a hard time - so I use the moment as I need it and hope others find the solace they need. Jaume makes a great point with the "wounded self" observation. I have been known to talk about healing as one of the ways Unitarian Universalism serves the world, esp. with regard to those with painful past experiences in religion. I will keep an eye out for that publication. PB, I am curious about your report of the lack of that kvetching at the homiletics festival. That does sound uplifting, actually. Not unlike what I was trying to do with Articulating Your UU Faith this spring - focus on the positive definitions, rather than saying what UUism is not. We could use more of that as well. I appreciate both Peacebang’s query - because we really need to make sure that kind of reflection is serving us and the larger movement. And I have my own experience related to God Guurrll’s. There have been some years at ministry days when that prayer was the moment when I felt, “somebody sees me! loves me! knows what I’ve been through this year! I don’t have to hold it by myself anymore.” A very powerful release at times. And then other years, that prayer does not go so deep because I have not had such a hard time - so I use the moment as I need it and hope others find the solace they need.

Jaume makes a great point with the “wounded self” observation. I have been known to talk about healing as one of the ways Unitarian Universalism serves the world, esp. with regard to those with painful past experiences in religion. I will keep an eye out for that publication.

PB, I am curious about your report of the lack of that kvetching at the homiletics festival. That does sound uplifting, actually. Not unlike what I was trying to do with Articulating Your UU Faith this spring - focus on the positive definitions, rather than saying what UUism is not. We could use more of that as well.

]]> By: Scott (Boy in the Bands) http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4481 Scott (Boy in the Bands) Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:26:46 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4481 I used to detect a bit of ritualized "wounded healer" in the rhetoric, and I don't think its a UU thing. I used to detect a bit of ritualized “wounded healer” in the rhetoric, and I don’t think its a UU thing.

]]> By: God Guurrll http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4477 God Guurrll Tue, 05 Jun 2007 11:46:38 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4477 For me the collegial gatherings are the only time that I can vent about the difficulties of clergy life. Otherwise I have to have my game face on and smile and say "everything is fine" at my job. At collegial gatherings I can connect with other clergy and know that I am not alone in the struggle. I used to be part of a clergy cluster where my colleagues would try to out do each other in talking about how terrific things were in their congregations, no one felt safe talking about their struggles and I knew for a fact that some of these clergy who were bragging were actually struggling. This was not an effective group for me and I stopped going. I understand that some of the kvetching can bring you down, but for some, especially clergy who are isolated with little to support them the opportunity to vent and to receive pastoral care at gatherings of clergy is very important. I love your blog! It is a source of support for me. In Christ! God Guurrll For me the collegial gatherings are the only time that I can vent about the difficulties of clergy life. Otherwise I have to have my game face on and smile and say “everything is fine” at my job. At collegial gatherings I can connect with other clergy and know that I am not alone in the struggle.

I used to be part of a clergy cluster where my colleagues would try to out do each other in talking about how terrific things were in their congregations, no one felt safe talking about their struggles and I knew for a fact that some of these clergy who were bragging were actually struggling. This was not an effective group for me and I stopped going.

I understand that some of the kvetching can bring you down, but for some, especially clergy who are isolated with little to support them the opportunity to vent and to receive pastoral care at gatherings of clergy is very important.

I love your blog! It is a source of support for me.

In Christ!
God Guurrll

]]> By: Jaume http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4470 Jaume Tue, 05 Jun 2007 08:59:23 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4470 IMO, this is part of the underlying UU theology that pervades our religious practice. It is the concept of the "wounded self" that needs restoration in the healing environment of the religious community. I deal with this topic in my essay delivered at the ICUU theological symposium in Kolozsvár. I have been told that the proceedings will be published soon. IMO, this is part of the underlying UU theology that pervades our religious practice. It is the concept of the “wounded self” that needs restoration in the healing environment of the religious community. I deal with this topic in my essay delivered at the ICUU theological symposium in Kolozsvár. I have been told that the proceedings will be published soon.

]]> By: Ian http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4460 Ian Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:05:31 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4460 Didn't Christian Century just have a note about a survey showing that clergy are among the happiest professionals? Honest, it had to do with job satisfaction, i.e. be content in your chosen field. But I know what you mean, as a group clergy find it hard to resist kvetching. Perhaps it is something in the hardwiring that comes from our Jewish roots? To hear some clergy talk you'd think that we are all lying in the ground baking bagels...oy vey! Didn’t Christian Century just have a note about a survey showing that clergy are among the happiest professionals? Honest, it had to do with job satisfaction, i.e. be content in your chosen field.

But I know what you mean, as a group clergy find it hard to resist kvetching. Perhaps it is something in the hardwiring that comes from our Jewish roots? To hear some clergy talk you’d think that we are all lying in the ground baking bagels…oy vey!

]]> By: h sofia http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4459 h sofia Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:41:21 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/2007/06/04/the-annual-prayer-of-kvetching/#comment-4459 I don't know, but maybe it's the same thing that's affecting the UU bloggers! I don’t know, but maybe it’s the same thing that’s affecting the UU bloggers!

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