PeaceBang
The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather. Blogging about Unitarian Universalism, UU Christian spiritual practice, occasional cultural and political ravings, and the inner life of ministry. PeaceBang is the alter ego of a small town pastor serving an historic New England Unitarian Universalist congregation.
Debt
August 22, 2007 on 12:14 pm | In Mind of the Minister |My friend Scott Wells writes about seminary debt today over at Boy In the Bands.
It’s funny that he chose this topic for this week, because I’ve been thinking a lot about my own seminary debt lately: namely, that I’m getting tired of chasing it down. It will shock you, but it shouldn’t, to learn that I borrowed $60K to attend seminary. Dumb, yes, and the UUA leadership advised against it, but I wanted to be a minister. I wanted to go to Harvard. I regret none of it. I let my heart overrule my head. I took a gamble that I would be healthy and able to work for long enough to retire that debt. Here I am ten years into it and feeling age creep up on me, and thinking wow, I have another seven to ten years left on that sucker! I am just one of thousands of clergypeople in a similar situation.
It’s not exaggerating to say that I lived in financial fear for the entire first five years of my ministry. I lived in affluent areas where housing costs ate most of my paycheck, and tax bills were always a shock for which I was never prepared (it takes awhile to figure out how taxes work for clergy!). I grew up wealthy and knew nothing about how to manage money, but I’ve learned a thing or two since then! Like: credit cards are from SATAN. Use them ONLY when absolutely necessary and pay them off right away.
During my first ministry I lived in a hovel compared to the homes of my parishioners, and vowed to avoid that in the future: it’s a great way to build resentment. As far as finding a roommate to share a nicer place, there are a lot of risks in that. Ministers work at home a lot and have some weird needs: who wants to tip-toe around on a Saturday night because your roommate has to be in bed early? In my second ministerial settlement, I was expected to house the church office in my home, so the roommate option was ruled out there, too. Who wants to come home to find a religious education program or board meeting being conducted in your living room?
Now that I’m finally earning a good compensation package (a fact that was only achieved into my third pastorate), I feel that I’m making up for lost time. As a single woman there is always the sense of flying without a net — if I get sick or am incapacitated in any way, I’m sunk. I’ll still have my debt but no way of servicing it. I feel very confident about my ministerial skills, but I am wise enough to know that those skills are not lucrative in the wider society. I love my work and accepted long ago that my resume was never going to put me into consideration for big bucks jobs.
I know this will sound Pollyannish but I’m just being honest: I would love to retire my debt not only to start serious saving for a home of my own but to do more charitable giving. I currently tithe 10% of my salary to various organizations (including my own church) and love the feeling of connection and meaning that brings to my life. When I dream of winning the lottery I don’t think about owning a home in Switzerland, I fantasize about going to the Harvard Divinity School or Andover-Newton Theological School Bookstore at the beginning of the semester and saying, “This semester’s on me!” I would write a check for every book in the place and all the students who showed up to purchase texts for their classes would be told that an anonymous donor has taken care of their bill.
Wouldn’t that be ALsome?
14 Comments »
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
Leave a comment
Powered by WordPress with Pool theme design by Borja Fernandez.
Entries and comments feeds.
Valid XHTML and CSS. ^Top^
I don’t have ministerial debt, as I am not a minister, but we do have school loans. What a drag they are every month.
I also have that fantasy about paying for some kid’s tuition at my alma mater. I was the recipient of a very generous scholarship from an alum based on merit and need. I would love to return that favor one day.
Comment by Ann — August 22, 2007 #
I had a rental applicant who was 26 years old and had 140K in debt for undergrad and grad loans. I couldn’t believe it.
It looks as though for you the end is in sight!
Comment by h sofia — August 22, 2007 #
I took out a few loans for my MDiv, of which I only finished two years before going into philosophy. Originally I figured that I’d be able to defer all the way through my PhD and then have a job at a university to start paying them off. I was naive…
Now I am realizing the value of being debt-free and, even though I’m older than nearly everyone in my program at 28, and it’s taken a bit longer to get my MA, I don’t have the fear of a huge debt burden at the end. At least not yet, assuming things go smoothly with funding, etc.
I haven’t had to make the decision to take out loans or not go to school. Depending upon what happens with applications this winter, I may– and I am dreading that choice. It is really a no-win situation, at least as long as philosophy professors have the earning potential they do. I’m thankful for a backup career…though in some ways I wish I didn’t have it, so I could justify taking the financial plunge.
Comment by ck — August 22, 2007 #
I have student loans from undergrad out the whatnots, and I’m looking forward to seminary with dread. In fact, loans are part of the reason I’m not starting seminary this year, and part of the reason I’m being very cautious about where I apply. Both of which bum me out in a pretty big way.
I tithe 10% (like you, to a number of different organizations), but I’d love to have some freedom from this huge sack of brick-like loans hanging over my head.
I don’t know how we can keep functioning when we require ministers to have advanced degrees (which I fully agree are necessary) but pay them significantly less than almost anyone else with an advanced degree. And provide no tuition help. Particularly when more and more are graduating from undergrad swamped with debt.
C’mon, PB, let’s get together and solve this thing!
Comment by Mrs. M — August 22, 2007 #
How is it that our churches expect a graduate-level-educated clergy but don’t compensate their ministers so they can afford the schooling? What kind of denomination (ahem, the UUA) expects its ministerial candidates to have an MDiv, do a basic unit of CPE, and an internship someplace WITHOUT ADEQUATE FINANCIAL SUPPORT?
What kind of denomination? One that expects its clergy candidates to be wealthy.
I did not go to a UU seminary; I went to a United Church of Canada seminary that, although I was not United Church, gave me generous financial support, as it did to all of its students. Way more than I ever would have gotten at a UU seminary. As a result, I am completely out of debt from seminary, four years after ordination. The credit card debt I rang up doing my internship and CPE are just about all paid off. Friends say I’ve lived like a monk, but I’ve never gone without. You’ve been to my home, PB, you know one can have dash without the cash.
And while it wasn’t Haahhvahhd University, it was pretty much the Canuck equivalant! True, there has been a government-imposed tuition freeze on post-secondary education in socialist Canada, keeping the cost of even Ivy League colleges pretty low, for which I am also grateful.
Anyways. My point is, why don’t UU seminaries and the UUA support its ministerial candidates more generously? How many talented potential candidates for our ministry turned down the idea because it was too costly?
The United Church is more active in its ordinand’s discernment process (quality control?) and more supportive. When the church expects these guys and gals to go off to a three-point charge in Moose Poop, Manitoba right out of seminary, they help financially. What would it take for the UUA to be that generous?
Comment by PP le C — August 22, 2007 #
All this talk about debt and formation/intern troubles I’ve been reading lately have been very discouraging. There seem to be so many “what ifs.” If I accomplish one hurdle it doesn’t mean I’ll accomplish another. Even if I finish school it doesn’t mean I can find an internship. Even if I complete an internship it doesn’t mean I’ll be able to find a congregation. Even if I find a congregation it doesn’t mean I’ll be able to make a living.
One thing is for sure! I need to pray more!
Comment by David Kling — August 23, 2007 #
The UUA can’t support ministerial candidates more generously until it is willing and able to do a fair, effective, and rigorous screening of ministerial candidates before they get to their third year of seminary. Although we made a start with the regional subcommittees, the whole process is still rife with politics and basically ineffective. It harasses way too many talented candidates and passes way too many candidates of dubious ability. It’s a failed system, in my opinion. But you can’t just take on the support of anybody who says they want to be a UU minister…there’s not enough money in the bank even to support the ones most likely to succeed.
Comment by Christine Robinson — August 23, 2007 #
This is such a major national problem that goes far beyond the UUA. Nearly everybody who graduated in this last ten years and works in a “helping” profession is in the same bind. I’m rather naive regarding what the majority of UU ministers make, but it does generally follow the Suggested Guidelines, does it not? Outside of major urban areas, especially in the Midwest or South, those are very comparable (or in many cases, more than) what a social worker, or a professor at a private non-Ivy school, or a Legal Aid lawyer would make. I have no idea what the solution is; but I can tell you I know so many people who live in modest apartments and drive cars that are ten years old, and who struggle every month with the burden of paying for their 6+ years of higher education. The people I know who have escaped either now have jobs in the corporate world that they hate, or have married someone who makes significantly more than they do. It’s really rather depressing.
Anecdotally, I think many denominations are struggling with the issue. When I was in undergrad, I knew a kid who got a Kid of United Methodist Clergy scholarship and a loan through the Methodist Church, and both amounts were laughable (not to mention the interest rate higher was than a Stafford Loan). My parents are friends with a minister and her husband, who is a professor. She has said she would have loved to stay at home for at least a year while her kids were babies, but there was no way they could financially afford to live and pay back two professional school loans on one (non-tenured) professor’s salary.
Comment by Katie — August 23, 2007 #
I agree with Christine that it is difficult to contemplate giving money to support anyone and everyone who takes it into their head to go to divinity school. One solution might be a program that emulates what the Feds used to do with teachers —- loans which become scholarships after the fact based on years of service in ministry. With teachers a certain percentage of the loans were forgiven each year they taught.
Comment by Kate R — August 23, 2007 #
Apropos of nothing, I note that personalfinancetipsforministers.com is still available.
The short answer to this (in my mind) is that UU congregations need to give more so that they can pay their ministers more.
Comment by alkali — August 23, 2007 #
For anyone not sure how to start managing debt, I recommend Mary Hunt, whose book “Debt-Proof Living” is written in a non-intimidating “just-us-chickens” voice that makes managing money seem, well, manageable. Her website is cheapskatemonthly.com
Comment by FasterPastor — August 23, 2007 #
I agree with Christine 100%. Denominations that are generous toward their ministerial candidates are certain that they are investing in quality future ministers. The discernment process begins early, is rigourous, and yes, in fact, those not suited for ministry are discouraged. Those that are are supported.
My (considerable) experience in UU congregations is that any old body will announce they want to become a minister and everybody’s response is always and universally, “That’s great!” As in: I’ve been a UU for five minutes and now I want to be a minister! Response: That’s great!
Congregations and the denomination also need to discern an individual’s call to ministry. And to take responsibility for saying both No and Yes.
Comment by PP le C — August 24, 2007 #
Peacebang, it took me 5 churches to make a decent living.
I struggled mightily with my student loans from seminary, and finally a benefactor finished paying them off. I still wasn’t making much traction, though, with regard to retirement (and I’m about a decade ahead of you).
So I became a Dave Ramseyite and now I will be able to retire well before the age of 139, which all those retirement calculators used to show.
Good luck, you can kick Sallie Mae out of your house in a shorter time frame than you might think. It’s not painless, but it is as gratifying as being able to tithe. Which to me is one of the most gratifying things I’ve ever done.
I too want to increase my giving dramatically and ‘pay it forward’ as my beloved benefactor did.
Comment by PR — August 25, 2007 #
I don’t know that anyone but the Roman Catholics do a very good job at supporting seminarians. I do know I got lots of aid, but not nearly enough. Like you, I chose an Ivy (Yale) for seminary, even though it cost the most of all the Episcopal-approved seminaries. I also have huge debt that I will probably be paying into my retirement, or close to it. Fortunately, I live in a church-supplied rectory that is charming. I also did not find out the subtleties of clergy taxation until fairly recently (they warned me, but I ignored it — denial isn’t just a river in Egypt, as they say). Today I found myself pondering whether there might not be a way to get help with retiring my debt, but I haven’t reached the solution yet. Thanks for writing about this, though. I know seminaries and the Episcopal church are working on a solution for our seminarians, but it will come too late for me, I’m sure.
Comment by Ann — August 25, 2007 #