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	<title>Comments on: Women Ministers: Issues in Leading Worship</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/</link>
	<description>The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5877</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5877</guid>
		<description>Yes, yes yes!  This is good stuff, and so important.  It's true that we do not all have the same gifts, but a little coaching can go a long way even with someone who has no particular gift for public speaking. I have a master's degree in what I like to call "reading out loud," and another in theology, and though life has led me far astray from using both of these degrees, I'm inspired by this posting to try to put both to use perhaps simultaneously.  Voice lessons are good; acting classes are good, and there is also this other discipline I studied that was once called "oral interpretation of literature," or "speech," and in some places it is now called "performance studies." Those of us who have studied this discipline practice the art of embodying the text: i.e., taking the words inside of us, moving them through mind and heart, and speaking them authentically and effectively. I think there are speech coaches who can teach this in many places throughout the U.S. Learning awareness of body, voice, projection, authentic engagement with the text, can be a deepening personal experience as well as a relief to congregations and other audiences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, yes yes!  This is good stuff, and so important.  It&#8217;s true that we do not all have the same gifts, but a little coaching can go a long way even with someone who has no particular gift for public speaking. I have a master&#8217;s degree in what I like to call &#8220;reading out loud,&#8221; and another in theology, and though life has led me far astray from using both of these degrees, I&#8217;m inspired by this posting to try to put both to use perhaps simultaneously.  Voice lessons are good; acting classes are good, and there is also this other discipline I studied that was once called &#8220;oral interpretation of literature,&#8221; or &#8220;speech,&#8221; and in some places it is now called &#8220;performance studies.&#8221; Those of us who have studied this discipline practice the art of embodying the text: i.e., taking the words inside of us, moving them through mind and heart, and speaking them authentically and effectively. I think there are speech coaches who can teach this in many places throughout the U.S. Learning awareness of body, voice, projection, authentic engagement with the text, can be a deepening personal experience as well as a relief to congregations and other audiences.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5844</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5844</guid>
		<description>Frog Princess, in the Southwest UU Conference here, at district events, we have a minister who routinely offers workshops on preaching for lay leaders. Might see if some could do that as their mission in your area. Another possibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frog Princess, in the Southwest UU Conference here, at district events, we have a minister who routinely offers workshops on preaching for lay leaders. Might see if some could do that as their mission in your area. Another possibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Gerard Prinster</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5823</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Gerard Prinster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5823</guid>
		<description>Great topic, PeaceBang, and one that a lot of people clearly resonate with.

The most memorable conversation from my preaching class at Starr King (other than the professor threatening to hit me with a pie) was the point that Lizard Eater and jinnis raise.  It was surprising that otherwise strong, confident female classmates undercut their message by ending each sentence as it it were a question.  They were also surprised that they were doing it, which is one of the gifts of rehearsing our preaching with one another, and learning how others hear us.

We men have our own pitfalls in speaking, of course, but I think that the pitfalls women often face are loaded with so much cultural baggage, as unfair as it is.  Projecting warmth without being flirtatious, or childlike, or wispy, is just damned HARD for some ministers, and complicates an already challenging power dynamic with the congregation.

It was a valuable lesson for me to watch my female classmates struggle with this, and I took it to heart in my own preaching.  When I was newer to ministry, I would practice by speaking each sentence and STOPPING.  Having to listen to each statement hang out there in silence for a moment was agonizing, but it forced me to end them with an ENDING, neither lilting up at the end, or rushing them into the next sentence.  Of course, I didn't exaggerate this when I actually preached it, but I know that it makes my sermons easier for listeners to follow, and it puts more confidence into what I say.  Eventually, preaching as if you have confidence turns into genuine confidence, too!

And, PB, I'm so glad that you addressed the issue of apologizing for our words -- my God, what a self-destructive behavior!  Let's just start the service by telling everyone that they might as well stay home!

But I want to throw out a question/challenge to my sisters in ministry.  What's your take on sermon structure?  When I hear colleagues questioned about their rambling, directionless sermons, a response I've heard from a few female ministers is, "oh, that's just my preaching style; women use a different model, you know."  I was reminded of this not long ago, when I heard a dear female colleague preaching, and I thought the sermon had reached its ending four or five times.  I appreciate the point that we may have different tendencies in our sermon structures, but do you see basic standards that we all might follow?

Again, great topic, PB... thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great topic, PeaceBang, and one that a lot of people clearly resonate with.</p>
<p>The most memorable conversation from my preaching class at Starr King (other than the professor threatening to hit me with a pie) was the point that Lizard Eater and jinnis raise.  It was surprising that otherwise strong, confident female classmates undercut their message by ending each sentence as it it were a question.  They were also surprised that they were doing it, which is one of the gifts of rehearsing our preaching with one another, and learning how others hear us.</p>
<p>We men have our own pitfalls in speaking, of course, but I think that the pitfalls women often face are loaded with so much cultural baggage, as unfair as it is.  Projecting warmth without being flirtatious, or childlike, or wispy, is just damned HARD for some ministers, and complicates an already challenging power dynamic with the congregation.</p>
<p>It was a valuable lesson for me to watch my female classmates struggle with this, and I took it to heart in my own preaching.  When I was newer to ministry, I would practice by speaking each sentence and STOPPING.  Having to listen to each statement hang out there in silence for a moment was agonizing, but it forced me to end them with an ENDING, neither lilting up at the end, or rushing them into the next sentence.  Of course, I didn&#8217;t exaggerate this when I actually preached it, but I know that it makes my sermons easier for listeners to follow, and it puts more confidence into what I say.  Eventually, preaching as if you have confidence turns into genuine confidence, too!</p>
<p>And, PB, I&#8217;m so glad that you addressed the issue of apologizing for our words &#8212; my God, what a self-destructive behavior!  Let&#8217;s just start the service by telling everyone that they might as well stay home!</p>
<p>But I want to throw out a question/challenge to my sisters in ministry.  What&#8217;s your take on sermon structure?  When I hear colleagues questioned about their rambling, directionless sermons, a response I&#8217;ve heard from a few female ministers is, &#8220;oh, that&#8217;s just my preaching style; women use a different model, you know.&#8221;  I was reminded of this not long ago, when I heard a dear female colleague preaching, and I thought the sermon had reached its ending four or five times.  I appreciate the point that we may have different tendencies in our sermon structures, but do you see basic standards that we all might follow?</p>
<p>Again, great topic, PB&#8230; thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: PeaceBang</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5812</link>
		<dc:creator>PeaceBang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 01:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5812</guid>
		<description>@Frog Princess: That's a sensitive issue but I think you might address it from the place of "differing gifts." We're not all good at everything. Can your congregation identify a few people who give consistently meaningful and well-done worship services and empower them to schedule worship leaders, helping less able people find another role on Sunday mornings?

This is a pastoral issue and an evangelical issue in direct conflict. The only way to solve the conflict is to outright decide what you as a group care more about: providing quality worship or giving everyone the sense that all are equally able to lead quality worship. Since the second option is patently false (the plain reality is that all are NOT equally able to lead quality worship), I might more honestly rephrase it as:
Do we want to provide quality worship, or do we want to avoid hurting people's feelings?

Of course part of the problem is that Unitarian Universalists are lothe to admit that there IS such a thing as quality worship, preferring to lift up the value of everyone feeling equal.  I do wish we were better at the art of communal discernment and helping people find their strengths rather than insisting that everyone should have the right to take on leadership wherever and however they want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Frog Princess: That&#8217;s a sensitive issue but I think you might address it from the place of &#8220;differing gifts.&#8221; We&#8217;re not all good at everything. Can your congregation identify a few people who give consistently meaningful and well-done worship services and empower them to schedule worship leaders, helping less able people find another role on Sunday mornings?</p>
<p>This is a pastoral issue and an evangelical issue in direct conflict. The only way to solve the conflict is to outright decide what you as a group care more about: providing quality worship or giving everyone the sense that all are equally able to lead quality worship. Since the second option is patently false (the plain reality is that all are NOT equally able to lead quality worship), I might more honestly rephrase it as:<br />
Do we want to provide quality worship, or do we want to avoid hurting people&#8217;s feelings?</p>
<p>Of course part of the problem is that Unitarian Universalists are lothe to admit that there IS such a thing as quality worship, preferring to lift up the value of everyone feeling equal.  I do wish we were better at the art of communal discernment and helping people find their strengths rather than insisting that everyone should have the right to take on leadership wherever and however they want.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5810</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5810</guid>
		<description>This should be required reading for anyone who is in seminary or beginning their journey in the clergy.  I am taking voice lessons, and with proper breathing it is becoming easier singing the mass and reading the lesson.

Thank You</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This should be required reading for anyone who is in seminary or beginning their journey in the clergy.  I am taking voice lessons, and with proper breathing it is becoming easier singing the mass and reading the lesson.</p>
<p>Thank You</p>
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		<title>By: Frog Princess</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5808</link>
		<dc:creator>Frog Princess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5808</guid>
		<description>Since you mention the offenses of lay leaders, can you or any readers comment on how an entirely lay-led fellowship can gently and tactfully, shall we say, separate the wheat from the chaff?  It's a struggle to fill a schedule of services with high-quality leaders, and I cringe to think that someone's first visit with us will be their last because of a bungled service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since you mention the offenses of lay leaders, can you or any readers comment on how an entirely lay-led fellowship can gently and tactfully, shall we say, separate the wheat from the chaff?  It&#8217;s a struggle to fill a schedule of services with high-quality leaders, and I cringe to think that someone&#8217;s first visit with us will be their last because of a bungled service.</p>
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		<title>By: h sofia</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5804</link>
		<dc:creator>h sofia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5804</guid>
		<description>Tom,

This reminds me, of something else. It's common in US design and decorating to add things for effect, whereas in Japan one would take something away. As people who think more is more, I'd think in our culture - short attention spans notwithstanding - we have a hard time editing ourselves. We'll cut someone else off pretty easily, but we tend to believe in embellishment.

And I forget his name, but there was a famous writer who, in a letter to a friend, wrote something to the effect of, "I'm sorry this letter is so long, but I'm in a hurry." 

I think the consensus among writers is that it takes longer or at least more effort to distill thoughts and information into something short and concise. I know in the article I wrote for UU World, I was SO HAPPY to have Chris edit that. It was overwhelming and he kept it on point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,</p>
<p>This reminds me, of something else. It&#8217;s common in US design and decorating to add things for effect, whereas in Japan one would take something away. As people who think more is more, I&#8217;d think in our culture - short attention spans notwithstanding - we have a hard time editing ourselves. We&#8217;ll cut someone else off pretty easily, but we tend to believe in embellishment.</p>
<p>And I forget his name, but there was a famous writer who, in a letter to a friend, wrote something to the effect of, &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry this letter is so long, but I&#8217;m in a hurry.&#8221; </p>
<p>I think the consensus among writers is that it takes longer or at least more effort to distill thoughts and information into something short and concise. I know in the article I wrote for UU World, I was SO HAPPY to have Chris edit that. It was overwhelming and he kept it on point.</p>
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		<title>By: Madgebaby</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5801</link>
		<dc:creator>Madgebaby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5801</guid>
		<description>Sorry about the near dupicate comment--I thought the first one got erased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about the near dupicate comment&#8211;I thought the first one got erased.</p>
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		<title>By: Madgebaby</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5800</link>
		<dc:creator>Madgebaby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5800</guid>
		<description>You really ought to do a sideline gig as a life coach, PB--I don't know what the training is to do that officially, but I would totally pay you the going rate to watch me preach and preside and give me the honest truth about my presentation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really ought to do a sideline gig as a life coach, PB&#8211;I don&#8217;t know what the training is to do that officially, but I would totally pay you the going rate to watch me preach and preside and give me the honest truth about my presentation.</p>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5796</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 04:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/2007/08/27/women-pastors-houston-we-have-some-problems/#comment-5796</guid>
		<description>You make some solid comments here, PB.  There is a message for all, male or female in your words.

I recall a priest who would preface almost all of his daily mass homilies with a "well, today was a busy day, I didn't get a chance to study the readings very much, so..." and he would proceed to give an endless, rambling homily each and every time.  NEWSFLASH:  if you didn't have time to really look at the readings, do not advertise this fact, and please, keep your comments SHORT!!

In fact, not to hijack the conversation, but what do people think of that whole issue, sermon length?  I am a big believer that as attention spans get shorter and shorter, we simply cannot afford to think as long as a sermon is well crafted, researched, etc., that length doesn't matter....I think it matters very much, and a shorter sermon with one clear, concise, well delivered message is worth much more than a lengthy sermon that contains multiple messages, no matter how well crafted.
What say you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make some solid comments here, PB.  There is a message for all, male or female in your words.</p>
<p>I recall a priest who would preface almost all of his daily mass homilies with a &#8220;well, today was a busy day, I didn&#8217;t get a chance to study the readings very much, so&#8230;&#8221; and he would proceed to give an endless, rambling homily each and every time.  NEWSFLASH:  if you didn&#8217;t have time to really look at the readings, do not advertise this fact, and please, keep your comments SHORT!!</p>
<p>In fact, not to hijack the conversation, but what do people think of that whole issue, sermon length?  I am a big believer that as attention spans get shorter and shorter, we simply cannot afford to think as long as a sermon is well crafted, researched, etc., that length doesn&#8217;t matter&#8230;.I think it matters very much, and a shorter sermon with one clear, concise, well delivered message is worth much more than a lengthy sermon that contains multiple messages, no matter how well crafted.<br />
What say you?</p>
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