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	<title>Comments on: Singing &#8216;Bout Jesus in the UU Context</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/</link>
	<description>The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Tracie the Red</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-18074</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracie the Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-18074</guid>
		<description>Maybe this tiny URL will work better than the big fat one!

http://tiny.cc/XuW4b

Hope it works. It's well worth reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe this tiny URL will work better than the big fat one!</p>
<p><a href="http://tiny.cc/XuW4b" rel="nofollow">http://tiny.cc/XuW4b</a></p>
<p>Hope it works. It&#8217;s well worth reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracie the Red</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-18073</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracie the Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-18073</guid>
		<description>Maybe folks should read this lovely essay by Fr. John-Julian Swanson of the Order of Julian of Norwich on The Mystical Christ:

http://www.orderofjulian.org/julian's%20window/CE96DE91-1CF7-4DFC-8702-D5DB5B9F0A6E.html

I love what he has to say there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe folks should read this lovely essay by Fr. John-Julian Swanson of the Order of Julian of Norwich on The Mystical Christ:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.orderofjulian.org/julian" rel="nofollow">http://www.orderofjulian.org/julian</a>&#8217;s%20window/CE96DE91-1CF7-4DFC-8702-D5DB5B9F0A6E.html</p>
<p>I love what he has to say there.</p>
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		<title>By: fausto</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-18072</link>
		<dc:creator>fausto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 12:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-18072</guid>
		<description>Wonder and Wondering says:

&lt;i&gt;"I find that many UUs I encounter are hostile to the Christianity they learned as children. That’s understandable, but it’s a little like thinking that all mathematics is the multiplication table. 

"Re UU Christians, the focus as far as I’ve found is often on scripture interpretation a la Borg. I am much more interested in a sacramental approach, rather than parsing scripture."&lt;/i&gt;

On the first point, I think that's right.  I like Rachel's label of "post-traumatic church disorder".  I think part of the solution is to preach our own authentic Unitarian and Universalist theologies, which in some important respects were born out of healing responses to the same traumas in earlier generations, and I am perplexed why we do not do more of this.

On the second point, that's our authentic religious tradition peeking through.  We were never a sacramental tradition.  We arose out of Reformed Protestantism, which reduced the sacraments from seven to two (baptism and communion only), took a symbolic rather than liturgical view of those, and in the case of communion, limited its availablity and practiced it infrequently.  Worship in our congregations has always been centered on the sermon, ever since the Pilgrims first set foot on whatever rock it was that they authentically set foot on.  Sacramentalism is precisely what our religious ancestors were rejecting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonder and Wondering says:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I find that many UUs I encounter are hostile to the Christianity they learned as children. That’s understandable, but it’s a little like thinking that all mathematics is the multiplication table. </p>
<p>&#8220;Re UU Christians, the focus as far as I’ve found is often on scripture interpretation a la Borg. I am much more interested in a sacramental approach, rather than parsing scripture.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>On the first point, I think that&#8217;s right.  I like Rachel&#8217;s label of &#8220;post-traumatic church disorder&#8221;.  I think part of the solution is to preach our own authentic Unitarian and Universalist theologies, which in some important respects were born out of healing responses to the same traumas in earlier generations, and I am perplexed why we do not do more of this.</p>
<p>On the second point, that&#8217;s our authentic religious tradition peeking through.  We were never a sacramental tradition.  We arose out of Reformed Protestantism, which reduced the sacraments from seven to two (baptism and communion only), took a symbolic rather than liturgical view of those, and in the case of communion, limited its availablity and practiced it infrequently.  Worship in our congregations has always been centered on the sermon, ever since the Pilgrims first set foot on whatever rock it was that they authentically set foot on.  Sacramentalism is precisely what our religious ancestors were rejecting.</p>
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		<title>By: Gilster</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-18017</link>
		<dc:creator>Gilster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 21:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-18017</guid>
		<description>I think Michael Durall (noted church consultant) discourages publishing sermon topics. While my congregation seems to insist on it, I believe that it simply encourages an already ascendent shopper's/consumerist mindset. You should be going to church because you believe in and want to be in church. Cherry-picking what sounds interesting seems like a poor path. For all of our UU bravado about wanting to be challenged and the intellectual rigor of our free faith, I see a lot of people who seem like they just want to hear the same safe things repeated, that support their existing worldview. Peace be with you. Gilster</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Michael Durall (noted church consultant) discourages publishing sermon topics. While my congregation seems to insist on it, I believe that it simply encourages an already ascendent shopper&#8217;s/consumerist mindset. You should be going to church because you believe in and want to be in church. Cherry-picking what sounds interesting seems like a poor path. For all of our UU bravado about wanting to be challenged and the intellectual rigor of our free faith, I see a lot of people who seem like they just want to hear the same safe things repeated, that support their existing worldview. Peace be with you. Gilster</p>
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		<title>By: jinnis</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-18016</link>
		<dc:creator>jinnis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 18:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-18016</guid>
		<description>To h sofia's question about publishing topics:

An historic urban legend tells us that William Ellery Channing stopped publishing titles and topics the moment he encountered a parishioner who said he wouldn't be at church because he didn't feel a need to hear the theme indicated by Channing's sermon title that week.  Channing reason was that the point is to be with the community and to find times to grow, not pick and choose just what one would like.  I agree with him.  

If at all possible, I stay with just a title and do not write a blurb about the topic.  A number of ministers avoid blurbs like the plauge.  One of my favorite methods is when a congregation has a ministry team and publishes titles but not which minister will preach.  I'm willing to put in the title because the congregations I serve are so small and have so many different worship leaders I want to offer as much structure and focus as I can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To h sofia&#8217;s question about publishing topics:</p>
<p>An historic urban legend tells us that William Ellery Channing stopped publishing titles and topics the moment he encountered a parishioner who said he wouldn&#8217;t be at church because he didn&#8217;t feel a need to hear the theme indicated by Channing&#8217;s sermon title that week.  Channing reason was that the point is to be with the community and to find times to grow, not pick and choose just what one would like.  I agree with him.  </p>
<p>If at all possible, I stay with just a title and do not write a blurb about the topic.  A number of ministers avoid blurbs like the plauge.  One of my favorite methods is when a congregation has a ministry team and publishes titles but not which minister will preach.  I&#8217;m willing to put in the title because the congregations I serve are so small and have so many different worship leaders I want to offer as much structure and focus as I can.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-17994</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 18:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-17994</guid>
		<description>I think the important point here is raised in the title of your entry, PB.  It's not a question of whether or not it's OK to sing about Jesus, but does it fit within a UU context?  Most of the "Jesus" music I know of presents a Christology which doesn't exactly fit with our Unitarian or Universalist understanding of who Jesus was.  So why would we sing of him in this way in our worship?

As I understand him, Jesus' ministry wasn't about lifting up himself as something special or unique.  Rather, we has concerned with being of service - materially and spiritually - to those around him.  I've never heard of a UU congregation or individual UU Christian whose christology was remotely the same as that expressed in most of the classical masterworks or the hits contemporary Christian radio.  Sure, there are exceptions, but it takes some theological nuance to recognize the difference.

I've been saying for years that our musicians need more theological training so that they're better prepared to make informed decisions about repertoire that fits our UU context.  That way we can sing about God and Jesus in ways that reflect our shared understanding since doing so as part of a theologically balanced liturgical calendar is all but required if we're going to claim the Sources we do.  But it also means we have to sing music that lifts up the other traditions we claim.  Surely the sermons being preached don't always draw from one theological tradition, so why would the music do so?

I take strong issue with the idea that "the best and most suitable music" is limited to that which refers to God and Jesus.  This, to me, says that you either do not have a very broad knowledge of the available repertoire, or you have a tightly defined understanding of what is appropriate music for worship - an understanding that has served you well in other contexts but may not be such a good fit in a UU church.

I strongly recommend a relationship with the UU Musicians Network as starting point for accessing broader repertoire.  I had no idea what to do with my church music program when I started ten years ago, and UUMN helped me make amazing connections for both musical and programmatic/structural ideas.  The body of non-theistic, non-western, deeply spiritual and theologically nuanced music widely available today means that our music programs and their leaders have no excuse for continuing to lament the "change the words or sing it in Latin, but always sing music of dead white european men" status quo that was prevalant for so long in our churches.  The UUMN mentor program is specifically designed for folks who are fairly new to our movement, and helps them with this broadening of both repertoire knowledge and undertanding of what "fits" in a UU context.

www.uumn.org 

Jason Shelton
Associate Minister for Music
First Unitarian Universalist Church
Nashville, TN</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the important point here is raised in the title of your entry, PB.  It&#8217;s not a question of whether or not it&#8217;s OK to sing about Jesus, but does it fit within a UU context?  Most of the &#8220;Jesus&#8221; music I know of presents a Christology which doesn&#8217;t exactly fit with our Unitarian or Universalist understanding of who Jesus was.  So why would we sing of him in this way in our worship?</p>
<p>As I understand him, Jesus&#8217; ministry wasn&#8217;t about lifting up himself as something special or unique.  Rather, we has concerned with being of service - materially and spiritually - to those around him.  I&#8217;ve never heard of a UU congregation or individual UU Christian whose christology was remotely the same as that expressed in most of the classical masterworks or the hits contemporary Christian radio.  Sure, there are exceptions, but it takes some theological nuance to recognize the difference.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been saying for years that our musicians need more theological training so that they&#8217;re better prepared to make informed decisions about repertoire that fits our UU context.  That way we can sing about God and Jesus in ways that reflect our shared understanding since doing so as part of a theologically balanced liturgical calendar is all but required if we&#8217;re going to claim the Sources we do.  But it also means we have to sing music that lifts up the other traditions we claim.  Surely the sermons being preached don&#8217;t always draw from one theological tradition, so why would the music do so?</p>
<p>I take strong issue with the idea that &#8220;the best and most suitable music&#8221; is limited to that which refers to God and Jesus.  This, to me, says that you either do not have a very broad knowledge of the available repertoire, or you have a tightly defined understanding of what is appropriate music for worship - an understanding that has served you well in other contexts but may not be such a good fit in a UU church.</p>
<p>I strongly recommend a relationship with the UU Musicians Network as starting point for accessing broader repertoire.  I had no idea what to do with my church music program when I started ten years ago, and UUMN helped me make amazing connections for both musical and programmatic/structural ideas.  The body of non-theistic, non-western, deeply spiritual and theologically nuanced music widely available today means that our music programs and their leaders have no excuse for continuing to lament the &#8220;change the words or sing it in Latin, but always sing music of dead white european men&#8221; status quo that was prevalant for so long in our churches.  The UUMN mentor program is specifically designed for folks who are fairly new to our movement, and helps them with this broadening of both repertoire knowledge and undertanding of what &#8220;fits&#8221; in a UU context.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.uumn.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.uumn.org</a> </p>
<p>Jason Shelton<br />
Associate Minister for Music<br />
First Unitarian Universalist Church<br />
Nashville, TN</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-17977</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 14:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-17977</guid>
		<description>I have a name for the phenomenon that many in our congregations have had bad experiences in their former Christian denominations, and now have serious Christophobia:  Post-Traumatic-Church-Disorder.  Usually I mention it to lighten the atmosphere when people start ranting about those awful Christians.  

I love your statement that ministers should expect maturing UUs to heal.  I am a mom, and whenever I hear UUs talking about how they were so badly hurt so long ago, I want to say, "If you pick it, it won't heal!"  

I also consider myself Christian, and I feel sad that people have been hurt in the name of Jesus, but I also want to remind them that Christ's true message was one of love, for one's neighbor, for oneself, and for one's enemies.  Easier said than done, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a name for the phenomenon that many in our congregations have had bad experiences in their former Christian denominations, and now have serious Christophobia:  Post-Traumatic-Church-Disorder.  Usually I mention it to lighten the atmosphere when people start ranting about those awful Christians.  </p>
<p>I love your statement that ministers should expect maturing UUs to heal.  I am a mom, and whenever I hear UUs talking about how they were so badly hurt so long ago, I want to say, &#8220;If you pick it, it won&#8217;t heal!&#8221;  </p>
<p>I also consider myself Christian, and I feel sad that people have been hurt in the name of Jesus, but I also want to remind them that Christ&#8217;s true message was one of love, for one&#8217;s neighbor, for oneself, and for one&#8217;s enemies.  Easier said than done, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Mariah/Caelesti</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-17951</link>
		<dc:creator>Mariah/Caelesti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 03:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-17951</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons I came to UUism was that I was sick of the Christian-bashing in Pagan circles- esp. now since my partner is Christian, and looking for a more broad-minded community. 

I go to Lutheran services with my partner, so when &#38; if Jesus makes an appearance that doesn't bother me- in fact I welcome it, we can learn a lot from his teachings. It's funny Unity is known as being a more "Christian" church, but I think by that they mean more theistic.
If the church had an overwhelmingly Christian flavor too it, though that would turn me off, and I'd go elsewhere, but I could say the same if it had an overwhelmingly Humanist flavor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons I came to UUism was that I was sick of the Christian-bashing in Pagan circles- esp. now since my partner is Christian, and looking for a more broad-minded community. </p>
<p>I go to Lutheran services with my partner, so when &amp; if Jesus makes an appearance that doesn&#8217;t bother me- in fact I welcome it, we can learn a lot from his teachings. It&#8217;s funny Unity is known as being a more &#8220;Christian&#8221; church, but I think by that they mean more theistic.<br />
If the church had an overwhelmingly Christian flavor too it, though that would turn me off, and I&#8217;d go elsewhere, but I could say the same if it had an overwhelmingly Humanist flavor.</p>
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		<title>By: Wonder and Wondering</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-17948</link>
		<dc:creator>Wonder and Wondering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-17948</guid>
		<description>I find that many UUs I encounter are hostile to the Christianity they learned as children.  That's understandable, but it's a little like thinking that all mathematics is the multiplication table.  

Re UU Christians, the focus as far as I've found is often on scripture interpretation a la Borg.  I am much more interested in a sacramental approach, rather than parsing scripture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find that many UUs I encounter are hostile to the Christianity they learned as children.  That&#8217;s understandable, but it&#8217;s a little like thinking that all mathematics is the multiplication table.  </p>
<p>Re UU Christians, the focus as far as I&#8217;ve found is often on scripture interpretation a la Borg.  I am much more interested in a sacramental approach, rather than parsing scripture.</p>
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		<title>By: h sofia</title>
		<link>http://www.peacebang.com/2008/05/08/singing-bout-jesus-in-the-uu-context/#comment-17947</link>
		<dc:creator>h sofia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1548#comment-17947</guid>
		<description>Re: Peacebang's comment: 
Are there any UU ministers out there who simply don't announce their sermon topics in advance? If it's not meant as an advertisement, why do it at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Peacebang&#8217;s comment:<br />
Are there any UU ministers out there who simply don&#8217;t announce their sermon topics in advance? If it&#8217;s not meant as an advertisement, why do it at all?</p>
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