Comments on: Hostility Toward the Richie Riches of the World http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/ The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:54:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Ann http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20378 Ann Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:36:35 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20378 You may be tired of comments by now, but I do need to add something from our lectionary last Sunday: I come to call not the righteous, but sinners. Jesus loved sinners, and that's part of what made me feel embraced by the church again when I came back after 21 years away. Jesus even loved unrepentant sinners -- remember the rich young man? Jesus looked at him and loved him. Even when he wouldn't give up all his stuff. I agree with all you said about your own/my own personal wealth (well, pensions, savings accounts, etc.). We're nearly all sinners in this regard. And the rich probably need spiritual care and counsel more than anyone. You may be tired of comments by now, but I do need to add something from our lectionary last Sunday: I come to call not the righteous, but sinners. Jesus loved sinners, and that’s part of what made me feel embraced by the church again when I came back after 21 years away. Jesus even loved unrepentant sinners — remember the rich young man? Jesus looked at him and loved him. Even when he wouldn’t give up all his stuff. I agree with all you said about your own/my own personal wealth (well, pensions, savings accounts, etc.). We’re nearly all sinners in this regard. And the rich probably need spiritual care and counsel more than anyone.

]]> By: Chalicechick http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20291 Chalicechick Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:42:17 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20291 (((CC, they have plumbers in Norway and France and Cuba and China–every so-called communist or socialist country has them. You can look it up, honest!))) Right, but those countries pretty much apply the capitalist solution to plumbing, where the guy who works weekends makes more money than they guy who doens't. My understanding is that the system you were suggesting would work differently, and was trying to figure out how it would work. CC (((CC, they have plumbers in Norway and France and Cuba and China–every so-called communist or socialist country has them. You can look it up, honest!)))

Right, but those countries pretty much apply the capitalist solution to plumbing, where the guy who works weekends makes more money than they guy who doens’t.

My understanding is that the system you were suggesting would work differently, and was trying to figure out how it would work.

CC

]]> By: Mattador http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20237 Mattador Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:18:24 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20237 Part of my reason for puzzlement is that my intention in making the point I did was to show why I do not believe philanthropists can fully surrender their wealth- by maintaining power in society, they can do more to help than if they surrendered their position. I would rather people like Bill Gates were out there, continually giving and drawing attention, than if he and other spokespeople for charity gave up their money, and the only wealthy and powerful were those unwilling to share. Ideally, of course, all would share, and that distinction would be meaningless, but until that point, your criticisms of philanthropists seem counterproductive towards the goal of a society in which no-one goes wanting. Part of my reason for puzzlement is that my intention in making the point I did was to show why I do not believe philanthropists can fully surrender their wealth- by maintaining power in society, they can do more to help than if they surrendered their position. I would rather people like Bill Gates were out there, continually giving and drawing attention, than if he and other spokespeople for charity gave up their money, and the only wealthy and powerful were those unwilling to share. Ideally, of course, all would share, and that distinction would be meaningless, but until that point, your criticisms of philanthropists seem counterproductive towards the goal of a society in which no-one goes wanting.

]]> By: will shetterly http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20223 will shetterly Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:41:56 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20223 CC, they have plumbers in Norway and France and Cuba and China--every so-called communist or socialist country has them. You can look it up, honest! Also, change requires a leap of faith. Monarchists did not believe any form of democracy could work because humans need rulers who have God's authority. I'm glad someone decided to try it anyway. Well, I'm dropping out of the discussion on this post now. If anyone has anything for me about what's here, email me or leave a note at my blog. CC, they have plumbers in Norway and France and Cuba and China–every so-called communist or socialist country has them. You can look it up, honest!

Also, change requires a leap of faith. Monarchists did not believe any form of democracy could work because humans need rulers who have God’s authority. I’m glad someone decided to try it anyway.

Well, I’m dropping out of the discussion on this post now. If anyone has anything for me about what’s here, email me or leave a note at my blog.

]]> By: Chalicechick http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20217 Chalicechick Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:10:17 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20217 Yeah, until there's a real answer to that question rather than a blithe assurance that everything will be OK somehow because people are nice, I'm not convinced. CC Yeah, until there’s a real answer to that question rather than a blithe assurance that everything will be OK somehow because people are nice, I’m not convinced.

CC

]]> By: will shetterly http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20202 will shetterly Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:15:12 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20202 CC, people are different everywhere, but they still like to help everywhere. There are plumbers in socialist societies, honest. Do not be afraid that your pipes would never be fixed! *g* CC, people are different everywhere, but they still like to help everywhere. There are plumbers in socialist societies, honest. Do not be afraid that your pipes would never be fixed!

*g*

]]> By: Chalicechick http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20200 Chalicechick Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:48:11 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20200 Garbage collectors in major cities often make like 60k. They are actually paid quite well as it is because it's a job nobody wants to do. Like plumbers who work on the weekends. Which makes me wonder: in your society where everyone is paid the same no matter what they do, how do you get a plumber on the weekend? Do you call every plumber in the phone book and beg them all until you find one willing to fix your pipe? A capitalist would simply offer more money until a plumber was willing to do the job, but I'm assuming that is verboten in your society as it would be giving the harder working plumber "more than his share." CC Garbage collectors in major cities often make like 60k. They are actually paid quite well as it is because it’s a job nobody wants to do. Like plumbers who work on the weekends.

Which makes me wonder: in your society where everyone is paid the same no matter what they do, how do you get a plumber on the weekend? Do you call every plumber in the phone book and beg them all until you find one willing to fix your pipe?

A capitalist would simply offer more money until a plumber was willing to do the job, but I’m assuming that is verboten in your society as it would be giving the harder working plumber “more than his share.”

CC

]]> By: will shetterly http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20194 will shetterly Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:37:30 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20194 Mattador, a little of both? I was getting tired, so that was hasty. I was just suggesting that though it's hard, you have to expect some people to waste their opportunities, and you should try to forgive them, for your sake if not theirs. Bitterness shortens your life. And I was quibbling with the term "give to," which probably deserves an essay on its own. When we share, we often talk of "giving to" because it's commonly one person giving to another. But when the sharing is on a social scale, when you help create a hospital or a public transit system or a school or a better society, you benefit as your community benefits. In that sort of sharing, you're both giving to others and giving to yourself. You get far more than you give. I completely agree with you that you should give wisely, looking for institutions that'll use what you give most effectively. Mattador, a little of both? I was getting tired, so that was hasty. I was just suggesting that though it’s hard, you have to expect some people to waste their opportunities, and you should try to forgive them, for your sake if not theirs. Bitterness shortens your life.

And I was quibbling with the term “give to,” which probably deserves an essay on its own. When we share, we often talk of “giving to” because it’s commonly one person giving to another. But when the sharing is on a social scale, when you help create a hospital or a public transit system or a school or a better society, you benefit as your community benefits. In that sort of sharing, you’re both giving to others and giving to yourself. You get far more than you give.

I completely agree with you that you should give wisely, looking for institutions that’ll use what you give most effectively.

]]> By: will shetterly http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20193 will shetterly Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:28:23 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20193 CC, people do things for several reasons. The most important are love and need. If you look at other countries, where doctors are paid less, there are more doctors, not fewer. Historically, the AMA has worked to limit the number of doctors in order to keep their pay high. Compare that with Cuba's approach. As for garbage, the first step is to get people to consume less so there'll be less garbage. It is true that in a fairer society, garbage collectors would be paid more, but garbage would still be picked up--humans don't like to live in filth. Where that happens, they're usually living in despair. CC, people do things for several reasons. The most important are love and need. If you look at other countries, where doctors are paid less, there are more doctors, not fewer. Historically, the AMA has worked to limit the number of doctors in order to keep their pay high. Compare that with Cuba’s approach.

As for garbage, the first step is to get people to consume less so there’ll be less garbage. It is true that in a fairer society, garbage collectors would be paid more, but garbage would still be picked up–humans don’t like to live in filth. Where that happens, they’re usually living in despair.

]]> By: will shetterly http://www.peacebang.com/2008/06/07/hostility-toward-the-richie-riches-of-the-world/#comment-20192 will shetterly Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:20:36 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1573#comment-20192 Fausto, our society makes it extremely hard to look objectively at need, especially if you have children. I don't have children; that's why I can make more extreme choices than parents can--my need is less. But let's try to narrow this down. Right now in the US, 10% of the people have 70% of the wealth, 50% have 30%, and 40% have none. So, two questions: 1. Is that fair? 2. If not, what would be fair? Fausto, our society makes it extremely hard to look objectively at need, especially if you have children. I don’t have children; that’s why I can make more extreme choices than parents can–my need is less.

But let’s try to narrow this down. Right now in the US, 10% of the people have 70% of the wealth, 50% have 30%, and 40% have none.

So, two questions:

1. Is that fair?

2. If not, what would be fair?

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