PeaceBang

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1. One possibility is that Jesus didn’t say these words. It’s possible that these words were added by followers of Jesus after his death.

   This is suggested by the the Jesus Seminar translation of these words (Matthew 6: 9-13)

   Their translation of the line that you’re exploring is “And please don’t subject us to test after test.”

   It color-coded grey which corresponds to “maybe” — not the more certain red or pink text.

   Comment by Steve Caldwell — June 9, 2008 #

2. I heard it this time as “please pay attention to where you’re leading us, because we’d rather not stick our feet in a gopher hole.”

   I heard it this way because my dog & I are (still) rookie herding students, and I’m sure the sheep look at us sometimes like “I wish they’d figure out what they’re doing.”

   So reading it this way, it’s less like Jesus is suggesting that God is maliciously leading people into temptation, and more like God might be distracted, what with all the multi-tasking expected of God.

   And I have no idea if any of this makes sense!

   Comment by heather — June 9, 2008 #

3. This makes me think about Pete Rose and the picture that Ken Burns painted in his “Baseball” film.

   What made Rose great was his incredible desire to play the absolute best that he could. He had marginal physical talents but he practically ” willed himself to be great”. This desire to get every last smidgen of effort he could from himself was the same characteristic that brought him down off the field.

   Like anything in life, too much of any one thing is usually unhealthy or destructive to a person. I believe “Lead us not into temptation” is a reminder not to overdo it and to strive for a balance.

   Comment by Jim B. — June 9, 2008 #

4. That phrase makes much less sense without the following “deliver us from evil” don’t you think? Lead us [not into temptation but] deliver us…

   This seems like the proper (theo)logical reading, no? [Absolutely, and this may be a deficiency of the lectio approach… PB]

   Comment by KRS — June 9, 2008 #

5. The Episcopal Churches BCP alternate is

   Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
   Save us from the time of trial, and deliver us from evil.

   BJ

   Comment by BJ — June 9, 2008 #

6. Like KRS, I think the “but deliver us from evil” can’t be considered separately.
   There was an interesting translation from the Aramaic in the latest issue of ‘Faith and Freedom’ (British Unitarian heavyweight journal) which reads: “Do not let superficial things lead us astray, but free us from that in us which holds us back.” It’s by Neil Douglas Klotz and I rather like it.
   Another translation from the Aramaic, by Rosemary Arthur, is “Save us from being seduced into wrongdoing, and relieve us from violence and aggression.”

   Comment by Pigwidgeon — June 10, 2008 #

7. I don’t think it’s meant to suggest that God might mislead us. Rather, it sounds to me like a petition that God forbear from putting us to the test: “Don’t allow us any opportunity to be tempted, but keep evil away from us”.

   Comment by fausto — June 10, 2008 #

8. Classical Unitarianism, coming down from the Reformation which was radical but not universalist believed that God led us into temptation in order to develop our consciences. Or that it was our duty in response to temptation to develop them ourselves. Anyway, Daniel Walker Howe’s classic study, “The Unitarian Conscience: Harvard Moral Philosophy, 1805-1861″, is your one-stop shopping on this.

   Comment by Elz — June 10, 2008 #

9. This discussion group posting might be helpful: the suggestion is that the Greek mistranslates the Hebrew/Aramaic text which read “Let us not yield to temptation.” The post includes a citation to the Journal for the Study of the New Testament if you want to follow up.

   Comment by alkali — June 10, 2008 #

10. Just curious: are there any surviving Aramaic mss of Matthew that are considered more authentic than the Greek ones?

    Comment by fausto — June 10, 2008 #

11. Wow; how many translations of this one sentence are there!?

    Comment by h sofia — June 10, 2008 #

12. fausto writes:

    Just curious: are there any surviving Aramaic mss of Matthew that are considered more authentic than the Greek ones?

    Short answer: no.

    Long answer:

    1. The majority view among scholars is that the Gospels were written in Greek based on Greek and Aramaic oral traditions.

    2. A minority view is that the Gospels were written in Aramaic based on Greek and Aramaic oral traditions, and then translated into Greek. (This view is called “Aramaic primacy.”)

    3. Syriac is an Aramaic language. Some of those who assert Aramaic primacy also assert that NT of the Syriac bible (the “Peshitta”) provides the most authentic text of the Gospels. It is my understanding that oldest manuscripts of the Greek NT are older than the oldest manuscripts of the Peshitta, but if you believe the Greek manuscripts to be translations of an Aramaic original, then those manuscripts wouldn’t be more authentic even if they are a bit older.

    Comment by alkali — June 10, 2008 #

13. “Lead us not” is a straighforward English translation of a straightforward bit of Greek. “Temptation” is an English word that once translated the Greek (peirasmon) very well, but has now shifted its meaning. “Temptation” in this context does not mean that God is trying to seduce us into committing a sin. It has more the sense of a difficulty, and is related the word “temper” as in “tempered” steel. So, the most literal contemporary translation might be: “lead us not into difficulty.”
    For my part, I like the old one way way better. [Thank you for this, very helpful! - PB]

    Comment by Kevin Holsapple — June 10, 2008 #

14. Hey, Fr. Kevin! Nice to run across you again. I enjoyed chatting with you on another UU message board a few years ago, when I was using another nom de plume. You still hanging out down East?

    Comment by fausto — June 11, 2008 #

15. Kristin F wrote to me offline to contribute this:

    Regarding the Lord’s Prayer thing. My church recites it a little differently than is typical — “lead us not into TRIAL but deliver us from THE EVIL ONE.” I am assured that this is actually a much better translation and these folks know Greek and I do not.

    That’s not “trial” in the sense of hardship but “trial” in a legal, juridical sense. We’re praying to be spared from the defendant’s seat in a courtroom — because the end of that trial will not end up well for us. Through the atoning work of Christ (in my view including but certainly not limited to Calvary), we can avoid the trial.

    We would agree with you wholeheartedly that an image of God as sneakily leading us into temptation is a very bad and wrong image.

    I myself cannot vouch for the translation one way or the other but they our pastors are smart folks who know many things so I pass that along.

    I find your blog really interesting — thanks for putting up with the occasional comment from non-Unitarian me.

    You are always welcome to comment, Kristen! Thanks! PB

    Comment by PeaceBang — June 11, 2008 #

16. My church translates this as “lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the evil one.” That’s trial in a legal, juridical sense. Don’t let me end up in the defendant’s seat in that courtroom because that will not end well for me at all. But through the atoning work of Christ (including but not limited to Calvary) it is possible to avoid the trial and be delivered from the Evil One (who is the one who wants to lead us into temptation, trial, and all sorts of other bad things).

    I can only say two things in Greek so I can’t go back to primary sources on this one, but smart people who know many things tell me it’s a better translation so I pass that along to you.

    I really enjoy your blog — thanks for tolerating the occasional comments from my friendly but non-Unitarian self.

    Comment by Kristen — June 11, 2008 #

17. I just came across this, in James 1:

    13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

    Comment by will shetterly — June 12, 2008 #

18. Hello Fausto,
    I am delighted that you remember me (could you tell me your former “nom de plume?) I am no longer “down east”; I am in a parish on the Gulf Coast of Florida. As you can see, I still “slum” in the UU blogosphere. “Peacebang” has a catholic streak, whether or not she recognizes it.

    Comment by Kevin Holsapple — June 12, 2008 #

19. There’s a lot of scriptural tradition that says that God does “test” us or allow us to be tested. And the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness where he was tempted. Be that as it may, I prefer the contemporary-language version in our Episcopal Book of Common Prayer (1979): “Save us from the time of trial.” Yeah, that’s what I pray for.

    Comment by Ann — June 14, 2008 #

20. You make an excellent point. As usual. Plus, I always find that “not into temptation” is a teenie bit of a tongue-twister for me. Is it just me?

    Comment by M. Lara — June 14, 2008 #

21. I’ve always struggled with this line as well — it made me teach myself NT Greek so I could figure out what is going on. The verb form is a bit of a strange one — subjunctive mood (sometimes translated with “would” in English) which has a variety of different possible translations. One possibility that works for me is: “You would not lead us into temptation, but you deliver us from evil”.

    Bottom line - the mood of this verb (subjunctive) is not so straightforward that you would automatically translate it as “do not lead”. While it is true that when the subjunctive is negated, it is often translated as an an imperative, this does not always have to be the case.

    [This is very helpful! thank you! - PB]

    Comment by embee — June 28, 2008 #

22. Might it be helpful to consider punctuation ?
    the total context of the disciple’s prayer ?

    Our Father …
    may your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven…

    lead us…( pause ) not into temptation/trial but deliver us from Evil …

    for…
    Thine is the Kingdom ( where your will is done ) and the Power and the Glory Forever

    The emphasis then shifts to be one seeking His leadership - and then away from our own weakness to temptation, to His deliverance; because Evil is real.

    Consider our Lord’s temptation as the Son of Man ( Matt.4:1ff ,) His comments in Gethsemane as
    He cautioned watch,pray lest we fall into temptation; be watchful for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak …
    Jesus takes ‘temptation’ seriously for His followers.
    Evil is real, we are weak, safety is in our Father’s leadership, Power. Our destiny is Forever - His will.
    Thus is it necessary to play with the words or the phraseology?

    I don’t know Greek I thus may be way off. Yet even the KJV when pausing after ‘and lead us …’ then using ‘not into temptation but deliver us from evil’ as a complete commentary phrase seems for me to dissolve the conundrum.

    All your thoughts have been very helpful.
    thk u
    blsgs
    glh

    Comment by Gary Hausman — July 7, 2008 #

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