Comments on: Scapegoat http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/ The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:03:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Frank http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-25807 Frank Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:32:51 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-25807 If it helps for context, During the First Temple era, the goat for Azazel was thrown down from the Temple on Yom Kippur into the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gei Ben Hinnom, hence the eventual word for hell, Gehennom), which is also where temple cults to Moloch were built. During the Second Temple era, the lepers were all over Gei Hinnom–that’s where Jesus went to hang with the lepers, iirc–and they changed the Azazel deposit site to the valley between the Mount of Olives and Maleh Adumim. If it helps for context, During the First Temple era, the goat for Azazel was thrown down from the Temple on Yom Kippur into the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gei Ben Hinnom, hence the eventual word for hell, Gehennom), which is also where temple cults to Moloch were built. During the Second Temple era, the lepers were all over Gei Hinnom–that’s where Jesus went to hang with the lepers, iirc–and they changed the Azazel deposit site to the valley between the Mount of Olives and Maleh Adumim.

]]> By: Robin http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-24007 Robin Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:53:05 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-24007 I haven’t read the (non-canonical) Book of Enoch, but I understand that it is one of the sources for the (equally non-canonical, but try telling some Christians that) Christian legend of the Fall of Satan, and that in it Azazel is the name of one of the leaders of the rebellious angels, perhaps even the chief leader. I haven’t read the (non-canonical) Book of Enoch, but I understand that it is one of the sources for the (equally non-canonical, but try telling some Christians that) Christian legend of the Fall of Satan, and that in it Azazel is the name of one of the leaders of the rebellious angels, perhaps even the chief leader.

]]> By: NDM http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23238 NDM Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:37:41 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23238 Have you done much research into the references to Azazel in 1 Enoch? (as Fausto notes). It along with the book of Tobit seems to have some substantive background for this, uh, entity...I've always had interest in these characters, who make our modern notions of clean monotheism of the ancient Hebrews less straightforward. [<em>I'm going to read Enoch this week. I'm glad I have it in my library. Who knew? - PB</em>] Have you done much research into the references to Azazel in 1 Enoch? (as Fausto notes). It along with the book of Tobit seems to have some substantive background for this, uh, entity…I’ve always had interest in these characters, who make our modern notions of clean monotheism of the ancient Hebrews less straightforward. [I’m going to read Enoch this week. I’m glad I have it in my library. Who knew? - PB]

]]> By: fausto http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23212 fausto Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:36:40 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23212 On further reflection, I'm intrigued by the apparent dualism of the "scapegoat" ritual. One goat was sacrificed to YHWH, as a gift offering to atone for the comunity's transgressions against him, but the other was (at least figuratively) laden with the actual sins of the community, and returned to their ostensible demonic source. Usually Jewish good/evil dualism is attributed to the influence of Zoroastrianism during the Exile, but if the Yom Kippur rite predates the Exile that wouldn't be the case for this practice. I haven't read the (non-canonical) Book of Enoch, but I understand that it is one of the sources for the (equally non-canonical, but try telling some Christians that) Christian legend of the Fall of Satan, and that in it Azazel is the name of one of the leaders of the rebellious angels, perhaps even the chief leader. You would need someone with better scholarly chops than mine in Scripture and anthropology to comfirm it, but my hunch is that at least one sense of "Azazel" was as an early type-figure for what later came to be known as Satan. The goat association may even explain his horns, beard and cloven hooves. [<em>YEP, you got that right. I can't believe I'm so stupid I didn't think of the difference between a goat and a sheep. DUH. Baaaah. - PB</em>] On further reflection, I’m intrigued by the apparent dualism of the “scapegoat” ritual. One goat was sacrificed to YHWH, as a gift offering to atone for the comunity’s transgressions against him, but the other was (at least figuratively) laden with the actual sins of the community, and returned to their ostensible demonic source. Usually Jewish good/evil dualism is attributed to the influence of Zoroastrianism during the Exile, but if the Yom Kippur rite predates the Exile that wouldn’t be the case for this practice.

I haven’t read the (non-canonical) Book of Enoch, but I understand that it is one of the sources for the (equally non-canonical, but try telling some Christians that) Christian legend of the Fall of Satan, and that in it Azazel is the name of one of the leaders of the rebellious angels, perhaps even the chief leader.

You would need someone with better scholarly chops than mine in Scripture and anthropology to comfirm it, but my hunch is that
at least one sense of “Azazel” was as an early type-figure for what later came to be known as Satan. The goat association may even explain his horns, beard and cloven hooves. [YEP, you got that right. I can’t believe I’m so stupid I didn’t think of the difference between a goat and a sheep. DUH. Baaaah. - PB]

]]> By: fausto http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23210 fausto Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:07:55 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23210 Oh, my, PB, you're becoming forgetful in your old age. You were the one who first pointed it out to me! <a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40091" rel="nofollow">Hey, You Got Something To Eat?</a> Oh, my, PB, you’re becoming forgetful in your old age. You were the one who first pointed it out to me!

Hey, You Got Something To Eat?

]]> By: Danya http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23207 Danya Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:37:04 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23207 PB, the goat's name was not Azazel, though Azazel was definitely associated with demonic, dark forces of some sort. (The origins of this are rather shrouded in mystery.) The goat is sent off "to Azazel," with interpretations of what that means varying, perhaps to appease demonic forces, perhaps the wilderness itself (since the goat was, indeed, sent to the wilderness) was called "Azazel" at one time. If it helps for context, During the First Temple era, the goat for Azazel was thrown down from the Temple on Yom Kippur into the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gei Ben Hinnom, hence the eventual word for hell, Gehennom), which is also where temple cults to Moloch were built. During the Second Temple era, the lepers were all over Gei Hinnom–that’s where Jesus went to hang with the lepers, iirc–and they changed the Azazel deposit site to the valley between the Mount of Olives and Maleh Adumim. I'd suggest also checking out the Mishnah of tractate Yoma for more info (you can just skim to the places where it says "Mishnah" here, or you can read through the gemara--Talmudic commentary--if you want to see how the Rabbis interpreted the Mishnah. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/yoma4.html) PB, the goat’s name was not Azazel, though Azazel was definitely associated with demonic, dark forces of some sort. (The origins of this are rather shrouded in mystery.) The goat is sent off “to Azazel,” with interpretations of what that means varying, perhaps to appease demonic forces, perhaps the wilderness itself (since the goat was, indeed, sent to the wilderness) was called “Azazel” at one time. If it helps for context, During the First Temple era, the goat for Azazel was thrown down from the Temple on Yom Kippur into the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gei Ben Hinnom, hence the eventual word for hell, Gehennom), which is also where temple cults to Moloch were built. During the Second Temple era, the lepers were all over Gei Hinnom–that’s where Jesus went to hang with the lepers, iirc–and they changed the Azazel deposit site to the valley between the Mount of Olives and Maleh Adumim. I’d suggest also checking out the Mishnah of tractate Yoma for more info (you can just skim to the places where it says “Mishnah” here, or you can read through the gemara–Talmudic commentary–if you want to see how the Rabbis interpreted the Mishnah. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/yoma4.html)

]]> By: John Crovis http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23198 John Crovis Mon, 11 Aug 2008 04:44:50 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23198 Hello Peacebang, Could the story of Abraham and Isaac be the Archetype for scapegoating? Also, Azazel is considered a demon of elemental air, according to occult literature. I don't expect that you are versed in Qabalah, but the name Azazel has the same numeral value as "Anachnu" - the Hebrew word for "We." From a Qabalistic perspective, Azazel could be construed as a personification of the social fears and the potential for herd mentality within humans... Of course, the "Qabalistic perspective" is considered little better than superstition by some, but it does lead to some interesting interpretations of Biblical stories. Namaste. Hello Peacebang,
Could the story of Abraham and Isaac be the Archetype for scapegoating? Also, Azazel is considered a demon of elemental air, according to occult literature. I don’t expect that you are versed in Qabalah, but the name Azazel has the same numeral value as “Anachnu” - the Hebrew word for “We.” From a Qabalistic perspective, Azazel could be construed as a personification of the social fears and the potential for herd mentality within humans… Of course, the “Qabalistic perspective” is considered little better than superstition by some, but it does lead to some interesting interpretations of Biblical stories.

Namaste.

]]> By: fausto http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23177 fausto Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:29:34 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23177 PS: Forgive the typos. Don't type on laptops in the dark. PS: Forgive the typos. Don’t type on laptops in the dark.

]]> By: fausto http://www.peacebang.com/2008/08/10/scapegoat/#comment-23176 fausto Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:27:51 +0000 http://www.peacebang.com/?p=1628#comment-23176 Fascinationg questions, PB. I don;t have any good answers except to note that ramns are sheep, not goats. If that makes you want to throw out a rough draft or two, don't. I could eat them if you don't need them any more. It would be no problem, really. [<em>You just reminded me of the DANCING GOAT!!!! AND NOW I'M SO HAPPY! But I don't remember the post about the goat -- oh man, was that the Onion? If so, how can we find it again?- PB</em>] By the way, given a choice, I'm all for goat freedom rather than ritual sacrifice. It's even one of the 7 Principles, I think. Fascinationg questions, PB. I don;t have any good answers except to note that ramns are sheep, not goats.

If that makes you want to throw out a rough draft or two, don’t. I could eat them if you don’t need them any more. It would be no problem, really. [You just reminded me of the DANCING GOAT!!!! AND NOW I’M SO HAPPY! But I don’t remember the post about the goat — oh man, was that the Onion? If so, how can we find it again?- PB]

By the way, given a choice, I’m all for goat freedom rather than ritual sacrifice. It’s even one of the 7 Principles, I think.

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