PeaceBang
The manic mind of the minister -- Auntie Mame Meets Cotton Mather. Blogging about Unitarian Universalism, UU Christian spiritual practice, occasional cultural and political ravings, and the inner life of ministry. PeaceBang is the alter ego of a small town pastor serving an historic New England Unitarian Universalist congregation.
Fat AND Fit
August 19, 2008 on 9:27 am | In Cultural Commentary, Rants: Sexism |Fat acceptance activists have been saying this for years, but it’s nice to see it in print somewhere legit, too. Concept! Fat people can be just as healthy or even healthier than thin people if they’re physically active and fit!! DUH.
I’ve known this experientially for a long time, watching skinny dancers during my theatre years subsist on a diet of cocaine and cigarettes and drag themselves exhaustedly for cocktails after a show, while the heavier singer/actors were boogeying on the dance floor until 2 AM, unaided by drugs. Now when I see a really skinny woman who doesn’t look to come by it naturally, I assume that the poor thing is probably almost starving herself to stay that way. If she’s smoking, I assume she is. Diet Coke isn’t a real elixir of life. Meanwhile I’m tucking into my big meal of fish and grains and figuring we’ll probably see each other in the nursing home at relatively the same age, that she’ll have her ailments and I’ll have mine, and that we’re both going to die of something.
One of my old boyfriends was a total string bean who would run 12 miles without breaking much of a sweat (he’s in his 40’s now and his knees and lower back won’t allow that kind of punishment, but he’s still very thin). His level of “bad” cholesterol was, and is, much higher than mine. Genetics.
Fat phobia is especially virulent in the dating scene, with single American males expressing the entire country’s prejudice in especially hostile, entitled terms. I’ve ranted about this before, but men on on-line dating sites think nothing of equating overweight/fat with slothful or lazy, and many of them say so outright (”I’m looking for someone who takes care of herself” is one of the most common ways to express it — or even “No fat couch potatoes sitting around eating bon-bons.” Let’s hope that *that* particular charmer found himself a thin gal with the personality and character he deserves). Many men specify that they want to date someone who is height/weight appropriate (I see nothing offensive about that) but then go so far as to specify dress size or a number on the scale they won’t go above. The word “petite” comes up a lot. Not athletic or active or sports-oriented, all of which would fairly express a preference for the kind of gal who’d rather go rollerblading than visit the Museum of Fine Arts with ya, but just “petite.” Read: She must be appropriately small. We don’t want our women taking up too much room. She could be an alcoholic, a virago, a total bore, uninterested in anything about the world around her, selfish, totally untalented, unambitious and plain out nasty, but if she’s petite, that must signal some kind of innate virtue. And what virtue is that? The ability not to eat too much and commit the crime of having fat on her body.
So yes, fat is still a particularly feminist issue in America (the multi-billion dollar weight loss industry still promotes its wares overwhelmingly to women over men) but with the obesity “epidemic,” it’s now everyone’s issue.
The more we get the word out that fat people are not necessarily lazy, flabby Death Bombs just waiting to go off in their EZ-Lounge, the better. The general public needs to know that plenty of heavy people are very active, eat well and are just as health-conscious as many thin people (if not more so). And fat people need to have it validated for us that it does matter that we exercise, stick it out through that Zumba class, choose healthy foods and not fall prey to the anti-fat moralism that has been in vogue for the past few decades and which has made fat-bashing one of the last acceptable public prejudices in America.
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Preach it, sister. May I also recommend Kate Harding’s Shapely Prose? (Hope I got those tags right.) Whenever I recommend courtesy to fat people in my column I get actual hate mail. Clearly, fat people have violated some social compact by being fat and I am contributing to the downfall of civilization by suggesting that they deserve respect.
What I hope this research does is wake people up to the fact that not only is fat prejudice morally wrong, but empirically, it hurts everyone. The automatic conflation of thin = healthy/fat = unhealthy doesn’t just hurt fat people, but keeps thin people from getting the medical attention they need. It’s a lazy shortcut to diagnosis that results in a lot of mistakes all over the weight spectrum.
(I’m sorry if that sounds like I just derailed into “OMG what about the skinnies?!” I don’t mean that … if anything it’s more like “OMG what about the science?!” Demographics aren’t a substitute for diagnosis.)
Comment by Miss Conduct — August 19, 2008 #
I happened to catch a little of the Olympic women’s super heavyweight lifting the other night. Those women were *amazing*, talk about raw power.
Comment by Theodora — August 19, 2008 #
PeaceBang, Just wanted to say that I couldn’t agree more. Not all of us are built like Twiggy and we shouldn’t have to feel bad about it. In the past couple years the Washington Post featured an article about a woman who was not petite, but very fit. This woman taught an exercise class. Potential students often questioned whether a larger woman should be teaching a fitness class. They usually stopped asking that question after she kicked their rear ends in her class!
Comment by chris — August 19, 2008 #
Amen! Thanks for posting this link, PB.
Comment by Ian — August 19, 2008 #
(((Diet Coke isn’t a real elixir of life.)))
But sugar free Red Bull is… right? Right? [Do you know I’ve NEVER had a Red Bull? So unhip. - PB]
CC
Comment by Chalicechick — August 19, 2008 #
I had a similar reaction to Theodora: the Olympic athletes come in all shapes and sizes. I keep seeing how many of them don’t fit the ideal for women’s body type, and it makes me so happy!
The American woman who won gold in discus was cute as a button, saying Mary Lou Retton was her idol growing up and she hoped to meet her. Then she said, “She’d come up to here on me,” and her hand wasn’t even in the picture screen.
I am sick of beach volleyball and suspect its ubiquitousness (is that a word?) has more to do with the outfits than the sport.
Laura
Comment by LauraToepfer — August 19, 2008 #
When I asked my darling to marry me back in 1948 one of the things I remember her saying besides “yes” was: “Now I have a reason to lose weight.” I assured her that that wasn’t anything I had in mind. We enjoyed life together for 59 years and I still miss the bed sinking down as she got in after nightly rituals.
[That is so sweet. I remember reading a phrase in a novel that hurt me, and still does — it was something about a man joking that he didn’t miss the dent in the mattress where his fat mistress had slept beside him so many nights. I think the character was a priest. I thought, what a thanks to a woman who was probably so generous with herself in bed and out of it, too. - PB]
Comment by jcurmudge — August 19, 2008 #
On a similar thought string as jcurmudge…
My Mom tells a story of a fellow who regularly visits her office on sales calls. He is single, has a home near Cape Cod, a dog and a seemingly stable, happy life. Inevitably, my he and my Mom discuss his marital status, and something he said to her has stuck in my mind.
He says: “I’m looking for a woman who is beautiful on the inside”.
I try to keep this little nugget of wisdom with me as I navigate singledom and dating as well.
Comment by Jim B. — August 19, 2008 #
I heart PeaceBang!
I just got through explaining to someone — who was intimating that fatness is a choice — the following:
Yesterday, I made the choice to enjoy a fresh salad topped with grilled salmon.
This morning, I made the choice to run for one hour with my dog.
I make these choices just about every day — though I certainly choose to eat sweets and drink alcohol moderately, too. And laugh. And sleep.
Still. Fat.
Call me a bleeding heart, but I kind of think fat people who choose pizza, burgers and a night of The Cleaner on A&E as their “exercise” deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, too.
I even think they deserve kind, competent healthcare.
Cuz, you know, all the shame and judgment has been so successful in making them forever thin.
P.S. (And, PB, you didn’t get the memo? If you’re female, your JOB is to work full-time, clean and tidy the house part-time, and do it all while looking HAWT.)
[I heart Cindy! I’m totally going to use the word HAWT all the time now. xoxo- PB]
Comment by Cindy — August 19, 2008 #
Objective proof that fat can be fit has existed for a century, but rejected out of hand without examination by the medical establishment. When I sold life insurance, I was astonished to see that the insurance industry used a quite different height/weight chart than the doctors did- one that had the optimum weight some 15-20% higher! When asked, the instructor in our license class said “I’m not permitted to speculate on how their charts were made; I’m not even permitted to say that the weights we list are healthy- we’ve received warnings about practicing medicine without a license. All I can say is that the people at those weights live longer. We KNOW; we write the checks.”
As to the dating scene, I’ve no doubt men can be dogs- but speaking as a fat man, I find it impossible to believe that men are worse than women in that regard. [Tell it, brother. We need to hear from men on this point, too. - PB]
Comment by Joel Monka — August 19, 2008 #
I’ve come to question our proclivity to want to lash out at obesity and the obese, particularly in recent times. It’s the latest socially acceptable outrage that everyone’s grabbed hold of and as you’ve pointed out, it does us absolutely no good in the long run.
Comment by Comrade Kevin — August 19, 2008 #
Good post and very true. However, I would caution the emphasis that the pressure to be thin comes so much from men. In my experience, nothing comes close to the pressure women put on themselves. Maybe they think they are doing it on behalf of men, so maybe that is where the miscommunication is coming from.
Personally, I would rather enjoy good conversation than to be eating dinner by myself because the woman is afraid to eat. Believe me when I say that counting calories makes for some of the most boring dinner conversation (and that is saying a lot coming from a person who is intensely interested in food nutrition and health)!
You can date a male bodybuilder, too, but then you have to accept the fact that this man is willing to spend hours weekly picking up a heavy object and putting it back down several times. You want a body builder, you really and truly end up with a body builder! Be careful what you wish for. I see the same in women: Someone who spends that much time obsessing over her appearance is not likely to be someone willing to put a lot of attention into other things (like her hobbies, her family, and yes, me, too).
I’m not saying men are total angels here, but most men comprise the silent majority who would never put dress size specs in an internet dating ad. I would seriously have to ask why a woman would be interested in a man who did that? Move along to the bald, fat guy who is not saying that!
Men do express concerns over womens weight, but are much more forgiving of a few pounds. Kate Winslet in Titanic was clearly the sexiest role in a generation, and I would bet that most men would agree. I was shocked to read articles later that debated whether she was “too fat” for the movie industry. People thought she was attractive until they were told to believe otherwise.
[Hey Frank, are we related? My mom’s maiden name is the same as your last name! Are you Slovak? Anyway, I agree with you that Madison Avenue and the entertainment and fashion industries have huge stakes in promoting fat-phobia, being in the business of manipulating desire for profit. I’ve been told more than once that I confused men because although I was ‘too fat’ for them, they found themselves attracted to me against their will. Which I think is insane, and always said so. What I said, specifically, is that their libido had been co-opted by Madison Avenue and it was their loss. Very much in step with your point about the general public not ‘knowing’ that the delectable Ms. Winslet was too fat (HA!) until the media decided to put the story out there. And yes, you are right that women can be far worse to each other than men are to them. Hello, mothers and daughters, anyone? - PB]
Comment by Frank — August 19, 2008 #
Amen, my Reverend Friend!
I totally sympathize with Joel Monka above me. The dating scene is hard for large males. Women can be so brutal to large men, some don’t even know that they are being so. My female friends, while talking about boys, will often comment, “Oh, he’s too fat for me.” or “Look at that double chin, what a fatty.” or “We used to be fatties and nobody liked us when we were younger.” Those comments aggravate me. While we large men are not as physically appealing as a thinner man, we still have loads to offer.
I eat healthier than my father who is smaller than I. I eat healthier than a good number of my friends, yet I am larger than they. Small folks don’t tend to realize that genetics play a huge role in things.
Oh well. As long as one is happy with oneself, all is fine.
Thank God for people like you, PB–people who care.
Blessings!
Comment by thefutureRev.Cody — August 20, 2008 #
PB: I am Slovak. All of the family that I know about started their journey in America via Cleveland, OH, so the known relatives fanned out from there. Although my grandmother told me that our name is the Slovak version of “Smith,” so who knows!
Comment by Frank — August 20, 2008 #
I would also post a warning about culture. While being thin is praised in white mainstream culture, other ethnic cultures: African American and Hispanic to name two historically reject the thin image. Many women in the rap videos that we rightfully criticize are large or full bodied.
Anybody remember Sir Mix Alot? More women with back are preferred today than without. Heck there are even plastic surgeons who specialize in putting “junk in the trunk” for models because with the rise of the thong bikini, models are expected to have a butt.
I would also point out that what mainstream men consider sexy is sometimes different than what mainstream TV puts on. What I mean is this: Playboy is not what many men who buy those mags consider sexy: the more raunchy and still popular mags still show in-shape or full bodied women.
Again I am not trying to sing any praises of the media, just pointing out that those publications would not still be around if even white men liked skinny girls. This goes even to the rise of women with their own adult websites, very few of them are skinny.
And let’s not even talk about the “Cougar” craze where the women are not only not thin but 20 years older than the men.
So what does that mean about fat? I would say that the true image of sexy (i.e. what does it for men and what men like to date vs TV) is not really skinny. Its complex just like the moniker of fat. Some women call a butt, having a fat butt. What some call fat others call full bodied, or voluptuous.
I mean really are we talking obese or just 30-40 pounds out of shape?
I would also say this: The constant argument by feminists against the skinny girl image while simultaneously ignoring the cultures of women of color in this country where the feminists could have gotten strength reveals a lot of the racial blindness of the movement.
These other cutlures and the women in them should have been cited and celebrated. Instead when other cutlures of color are mentioned it’s usually a european country or some cite to the middle ages.
With the exception of a footnote in Rescuing Ophelia and Terry Gross mentioning it in her interview with the author there has been no attempt to captitalize on that. Even Queen Lattifa’s rise to sexyness and power was treated more as a side event than something to be celebrated and supported.
I would also offer this concern; as African Americans become more mainstream their children are taking on the good and bad of mainstream culture. Image driven annorexia is starting to show amongst black young women. A feminist movement that proactively celebrated the traditional black version of beauty could do a lot to help those girls and their white sister in suffering.
Comment by Chuck B. — August 20, 2008 #
As a response to Chuck B. I think that the intersection of race and fat may be more complex than this comment purports. I recently read an excellent blog post at:
http://www.fatshionista.com/cms/index.php?option=com_mojo&Itemid=69&p=64
And, FYI, 30-40 pounds out of shape puts many people (myself included) into the “obese” category according to the highly problematic, but practically worshipped, BMI chart.
Nice to hear your thoughts on this PB!
Comment by rebster — August 20, 2008 #
Rebster, thanks for the fatshionista link; I read that posting with great interest. My favorite of the comments was by a user name fillyjonk:
What’s fascinating to me is why it’s apparently so psychologically important for white women to interpret the drive to present oneself well as a freeing one, not a constricting one. When we see a fat black woman dressing and acting with confidence, for instance, why do we want that to mean that she loves herself effortlessly when we can’t, when in fact she’s working hard to avoid the mammy stereotype? It’s not just exoticizing black culture or engaging in generalization, though there’s that. Well, no, I guess it is a subset of exoticizing black culture… we feel like we want to preserve this imaginary cultural space where the particular oppression we experience doesn’t exist, which of course requires ignoring not only the reality of that particular oppression but all the other oppressions operating in that group. At least, that’s what I think I see happening.
I’ve often been told (usually by middle aged white women) that black women love themselves more and accept their bodies more than anyone else. I’ve never known what to say that to that; it’s so preposterous in my experience. Till now that comment has just rendered me speechless, but now I may be a little closer to formulating a response.
Comment by h sofia — August 20, 2008 #
“Anybody remember Sir Mix Alot?”
Oh yes, quite. “Baby Got Back” is one of Joe’s favorite songs, along with “Brick House” by the Commodores. OK yes, the Commodores do use a specific measurement in their song (36-24-36) but Joe just blows that off. He figures they can sing about whatever it is they like, but he’ll have his own visualization of female pulchritude, thanks very much. LOL!
I’m a major plus sized Goddess myself, and I remember going to pick him up at work when he worked at Universal Orlando. Some of his coworkers saw me, and they said to him, “She’s kind of a big girl, isn’t she?”
To which he responded, with a huge grin, “Yeah and that’s how I LIKE my women!”
He has a sticker on his motorcycle helmet that says “NO SKINNY CHICKS.” He loves substantial women, and is convinced that many men actually DO like big women but when they are around their friends, they are too embarrassed to admit it. He thinks they don’t want to face ridicule from other men about their choice in women.
I have to admit that one of the things I love about hanging out with neo-Pagans is their appreciation of all sizes and shapes and colors and ages of womanly beauty; in Goddess grace, all women are the very image of the Divine Feminine. Hail Freyja, Lady of beauty, sensuality and pleasure!
Comment by Tracie the Red — August 21, 2008 #
Thanks for the link, but I would say that the post is not the norm.
Taking into account the definition of “Fat” is fluid, and of course any value laden term is complex across culture lines, weight and bueaty is still more accepted in the cultures I mentioned.
Is there a “Mammi” issue? Yes. I would say that issue has more to do with white acceptance of African American women who have confidence than acceptance of larg black beauty.
That said, I’ve known many African American women who were more than 10 pounds overweight who had no problem with dates. Also, I can still point to those otherwise offensive videos which presented large women as sexy.
Again, large is relative: I am not talking about obese or women with rolls of fat, or even those identified as “average”.
While Sir Mix-alot mentioned “flo-jo” he also said “red beans and rice didn’t miss her” that type of woman is not Flo-jo. Not to impune the poster too much, she may have other issues.
Also, there are perspective issues that could be related to the aforementioned poster. My evidence comes from being friends with many African American women and therefore knowing how their date life proceeds, she seems to be speaking primarily from her own perspective. Remember she is not discussing how the same ideas of large beauty are pravalent in hispanic culture as well.
On another note on the issue: Marylin Monroe was a size 14; and in some Jewish and Italian cutlures fullbodied women are preferred.
Something to think about: If we were to even look at BBC entertainment, in many cases the attractive women is not always the skinny one. Anybody watch “Vicar of Dibly?”. Actually there many times Older women presented as preferred to younger when sensuality is the image.
Comment by Chuck B — August 21, 2008 #
A clarifying point:
Something Tracie the Red said made me want to add this:
Personally I’ve been attracted to women by a combination of their attitude, build, and intelligence. I’ve known some overweight black and white women who were hotter and still are hotter than some super in shape women I knew. Sometimes it comes down to even clothing; large or voluptuous women can carry off looking hot outfits or wearing fabrics that in shape or slender women just look silly or slutty in.
Here’s a male pig full disclosure point:
When Kristie Alley was on the cover of People Mag for “Fat Actress” I called my sister and said “Well, she’s big, but I wouldn’t say she’s unattractive, or even fat, she looks kinda hot.”
My sister pointed out this was my cultural heritage responding.
On the other hand, I’ve certainly considered Hailey Berry hot as well.
Obviously my idea of beauty is on a wide continuum. A lot of it also comes down to attitude, which affects the view more than you think.
I am married now to a woman who actually is getting hotter as she gets older (she’s Mexican,Scotch, Irish). (I am not, so I always joke that I “won” the spouse lottery) she’s had 2 kids and to me only looks more “womanly” and attractive.
I also have to admit that since I prefer women with curves that are naturally integral with some part of their body I have never had any interest or seen much beauty in unnaturally very thin women.
Comment by Chuck B — August 21, 2008 #
Oh, and a statement from Joe indicating how much darker things can get over one’s weight: “Do not forget, my military career went down the crapper because of 10 pounds and a chart.”
Comment by Tracie the Red — August 21, 2008 #
Cindy said: “I kind of think fat people who choose pizza, burgers and a night of The Cleaner on A&E as their “exercise” deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, too.
I even think they deserve kind, competent healthcare.
Cuz, you know, all the shame and judgment has been so successful in making them forever thin.”
Amen to that. I’m definitely in the obese category. What really sucks is that even magazines that are geared towards so-called “plus size” women mostly only go up to size 18. I’m a 26. A woman my size who might wish to be a model for such a magazine would be regarded as too big. My friend Crystal looked into it, and because she’s my size, she was turned down for that very reason. And she gets very depressed about it at times.
:sigh:
Obese people need love too!
Comment by Tracie the Red — August 21, 2008 #
Are obese people willing to date other obese people? It just sounds like some obese men are home alone and some obese women are home alone, and it seems like it doesn’t have to be that way.
I am not suggesting that obese people ONLY date other obese people!
Just a thought. Is there a trend where obese people are less enthusiastic about dating another obese person? I really don’t know, I am just wondering if this is the case. [Frank, there are lots of dating sites and organizations that cater to plus-sized men and women (known as “BBW’s” — Big Beautiful Women). Men of average weight who lust after plus-sized women are commonly referred to as “chubby chasers.” Not by me, of course.
- PB]
Comment by Frank — August 21, 2008 #
I always liked chubby men, but somehow it was the thinner ones who wanted to date me. The chubby ones were mostly not interested.
My husband is tall and skinny, but neither of those was a deciding factor at all.
Honestly, I think we look a little weird together.
CC
Comment by Chalicechick — August 21, 2008 #
Ps. I will totally buy you a Red Bull next time you head my way, PB. Sugar-free red bull is the only “diet” soft drink I can stand.
Comment by Chalicechick — August 21, 2008 #
RE: obese people dating each other
Well, I think my Joseph might be considered “obese” but I’m not sure. Since I don’t own a bathroom scale we can’t weigh ourselves so I don’t know precisely what he weighs. I guess for a 6′ tall, muscular-built man, he’s in the mid-200 range.
Me, I like burly men, be they muscular or just a beer gut. I like an armful when I hug a man! I give very firm hugs, so I’m almost afraid I’ll hurt a skinny man when I hug him. :blush:
Comment by Tracie Holladay — August 21, 2008 #